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Seated Dollars - Lots of plus signs!
DaveG
Posts: 3,535 ✭
Having (finally) received the new Grey Sheets, I took a look at the new Quarterly II and noticed lots of plus signs for Seated Dollars.
For Good to Fine coins, it looks like 99% of them had plus signs, for VF coins, it looked like about 90%, for XF coins, it looked like about 75% and for AU coins, it was only six coins. Looks like the pricing pressure is from the bottom up!
I remember that dealers' asking prices at ANA seemed a bit steep, but it looks like the Grey Sheet is confirming that pricing pressure.
Well, I hope that prices don't go up too much, I'm still looking for them!
For Good to Fine coins, it looks like 99% of them had plus signs, for VF coins, it looked like about 90%, for XF coins, it looked like about 75% and for AU coins, it was only six coins. Looks like the pricing pressure is from the bottom up!
I remember that dealers' asking prices at ANA seemed a bit steep, but it looks like the Grey Sheet is confirming that pricing pressure.
Well, I hope that prices don't go up too much, I'm still looking for them!
Check out the Southern Gold Society
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<< <i>I remember that dealers' asking prices at ANA seemed a bit steep >>
Tell me about it. I was at the Charlotte ANA and looked all over for decent circ (G-VF) Seated or Trade dollars, and everything I saw was either ugly, overdipped or beat-up stuff, or heinously overpriced. (Or both.)
Not too much selection, there.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
If so, I say, most unreservedly, you suck.
Collector since 1976. On the CU forums here since 2001.
For every date in the series, they suffer under the most extreme of grade-flation. A Morgan or Trade Dollar in MS63 will get a MS64 or MS65 if it were a Seated Dollar. For several of the dates, they rolled off the presses looking like they have impaired luster. (The 1848 and 1850 are excellent examples of this problem.) These are large coins and have garnered lots of attention over their lifespan. Consequently, they also suffered negative attention (i.e., abuse) too.
Specialists say that the Seated 25C series is much tougher than the Dollars, and contain far more rarities. True, but it is also a much longer series and one that will cough up far more MS67 specimens. To date, PCGS have graded somewhere around 175 MS67 specimens (including resubmissions). How many MS65 (!) Dollar specimens do you think exist? I'm including the "common" dates in gem, like 60, 60O, 71 and 72. Ok, how many for the series in MS67? (Let's just look at a single service to keep things simple.)
Let's look at the proofs... The W/M dates are tough with cameo, and the N/M are tough in any condition before 1859. In fact, the early proofs are tough to find with decent eye appeal. Why? Because most have suffered at the hands of guardians unworthy of their charge. Most of these proofs would, at best, grade out at PF62 due to their problems. Most should be BB'ed or net-graded down to PF60. Yet, they rejoice at the largesse of the services.
No need to compare the proofs to another denomination. The others contain far more specimens of far better quality...
In some thread about luster, I wrote that all coins naturally come with mint luster as a principle of physics. That is, all coins get flow lines as a consequence of metal flowing due to being struck by dies. As an exercise, I ask the membership to examine an MS63 SD and an MS63 Morgan. Swivel the coins and try to see the cartwheel. They should be there! Now, do the same for a PF64 SD and a PF64 Morgan or Walker or Ben. Big difference. Also, look at any DMPL Morgan graded MS63 or better and see both the mirrors *and* the cartwheel.
After looking at Morgans, Walkers or Bens -- all large silver coins -- then look at SD's again. Have a barf bag handy!
It really is quite sad the fate that befell one of America's flagship coinage series!
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
Large coins just get dinged up for some reason, and SDs are no exception. One reason I really like the $20 high relief proofs is that most of them have no scuffing on the knee - almost any other St. Gaudens, even up to 66 and 67 will show hits in that area. For some reason a proportionate number of marks on a smaller coin won't show up as much, at least until you get large photographs of your coins and then realize how crappy they are
I collect trade dollars as well [obviously] and it took me a bit of time to adjust to the grading of seated dollars. It seemed to me that the seated dollars were graded almost one grade more conservatively than the trade dollars. For instance, on a trade dollar a certain amount of scuffing or lines are allowed in the obverse field on an MS65 as long as the blast is there. On a seated dollar, it appears that unless the coin is a flashy cameo that it better not have a single hairline or scuff in the field in order to make gem.
I have researched just about every prominant seated dollar that has appeared in auction over the past twenty years and have seen very, very few that have reappeared in higher grades at PCGS. In addition, the Share collection contained about 10-15 dollars that had in the past been graded by PCGS. Many of the tags were quite old and the quality of the coins was quite high. Upon resubmission, every single coin graded the same as it had been graded previously. That ain't grade inflation! [darnit!]
<< <i> Specialists say that the Seated 25C series is much tougher than the Dollars, and contain far more rarities >>
Cool; I don't think anyone has ever called me a Seated specialist before!
I would agree with you if we were talking about collecting type coins or just accumulating the finest examples available, but aren't we once again talking about collecting ONE COIN OF EVERY DATE/MINTMARK in the series? What good does the fact that there are easily 50-100 MS67 1877 Seated Quarters do for the collector when it comes time to buy an 1860-S? You keep it up and I'm gonna start getting wound up and end up using statistics and math and all that and I'm sure no wants this to get ugly.
...or someone could find the link to the last thread where you were saying the same tired old things (guess my POV isn't all that fresh and new either though).
OK here's a new thought...if the Seated Dollar had stuck around until 1891 maybe it would look a lot more like the lower denoms in terms of type/grade rarity. What would mintage figures have been like? What would survivial rates have been?
I'm also going to side with TDN on the gradeflation issue...unless you have a big pile of PCGS MS63-65 Morgan Dollars sitting around that you are using for comparison in your statement...in that case I agree with you and would like to hear your best price on those Morgans.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
It isn't so much that I'm talking about the customary "gradeflation" where a coin is MS63 three years ago and is now MS64. Rather, I am saying that the services simply tolerate so much more from a SD than from a Morgan. Compare, in absolute qualitative terms, an SD grade MS63 by PCGS and a TD or Morgan graded the same by PCGS.
The SD in MS63 will be washy and have muted luster, while the Morgan and TD will have nice, prominent cartwheels. Since the vast majority of MS Morgans come with flashy luster, the services tend to "count" marks when grading. On this, the services will also allow more marks for the grade for an SD than for a Morgan. The exceptions, of course, being the lowly grade UNC's of the 59O and 60O...
Why do I say this? Because I think the services have over the years unintentionally "smoothed" the grading curve of the respective series (and, in some cases, specific dates/mints) to prevent excessive bunching or low ceilings.
And, yes, Rella, I would consider you a "specialist" though not in the same class (yet) of some of the veterans... And, my bringing up the quarters is to say that the SD series is not overly attractive to series collectors as well as type collectors. The series is simply too hard to collect, whereas the other Seated denominations is far easier to collect for type. (No, I will not poo-poo the quarters or dimes for their absolute difficulty in set completion in ChAU or better.)
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
The current Bid price for the 1872-S Seated dollar is $800 in XF and $1800 in AU.
(The XF price is up from $775 in August)
Check out the Southern Gold Society