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Colonials price guide??
GOLDSAINT
Posts: 2,148 ✭
Does anyone have a link handy as a price guide for Colonials??
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Start with the Redbook. Follow it with the last two years' worth of catalogues from all the major auction firms. Then, for scarcer types or variety-rich series, there are about a dozen reference auctions over the last 10-20 years you'll need to find.
The only way to really get a feel on how to price colonials is to see a lot of coins and study the marketplace. Some types, like common variety Fugio cents or high grade Washington pieces, trade at pretty standard prices (the Redbook is a good source on these), but a series like Massachusetts silver or Vermont coppers is a greater challenge.
While colonial coins are not as turnkey as the various series with weekly listings on the Greysheet, the extra work they demand is more than regained by the pleasure of collecting them and learning about them.
If there are few pieces I can help answer some questions about, feel free to post again or PM me.
The Red book is of great help in identification , but you never know about the price guide since it takes so long to publish. PCGS has a great pop report on these coins but no pricing. Some of them are very rare according to there reports i.e. showing only a very few ever graded, but the Red book prices are very low in most cirulated issues. As I went through the 2002 ANA action last night I was amazed at what the grading companies grade at MS 60 up, having to do with poor strikes in those issues I guess.
<< <i> PCGS has a great pop report on these coins but no pricing. >>
Those pop reports for colonials are about as accurate as they are for lima beans. Most coloinials are, thankfully, not encased in plastic tombs. Also, since most series are collected by variety it really is absurd since PCGS doesn't even attribute what they slab. They at best identify a coin only by some sort of broad type definition.
To the astute comments of Mssrs. Pistareen and abuell I would add the following:
1. Redbook prices are indicative at best, horrendously out of date or simply ridiculous at worst.
2. The best sources of current pricing information are the major auction catalogs' prices realized lists as noted by Pistareen, but one must exercise extreme caution when drawing conclusions about coin values based on the prices different coins realized.
In addition to the enormous differences in value ascribed to different die varieties that are not listed in the Redbook (PCGS and NGC utilize the Redbook designations, so of course they don't attribute by die varieties either), there is the issue of traditional (raw) grading standards being vastly different and much more strict than most slabbed grades.
As an astonishing illustrative example, take the recent John Ford auction results. Lot 1 in that sale was a brass Continental Dollar graded Choice XF by Stack's which realized the princely sum of ~$90,000. That very same coin is currently being offered by a major rarities dealer in an NGC MS64 holder for $262,500. This is not a joke.
3. The PCGS population report for colonials lists well less than 5% of all known examples of all colonial coins, so it should be viewed for what it is: a population report of all colonial coins submitted to PCGS (with duplications for resubmissions of the same coin multiple times). It may be a useful indicator of relative rarity in some cases, but it is not to be taken literally as a population of these coins.
In addition, and as pointed out by abuell, the overwhelming majority of better colonials are not slabbed and are nowhere to be seen on that report.
CCU is positively right on all counts.
Abuell, though named for a nefarious counterfeiter, is also correct -- PCGS Pop numbers on colonials refer to only what PCGS has seen, and they've not seen much variety since colonial coins began to be certified in 1991. They've seen an infinite number of some "slabbable" issues -- George Washington pieces made on the same kind of presses as Barber halves, Mint State Fugio cents from the Bank of New York hoard, "colonial" coins that are really Conder tokens masquerading due to their American relevance, etc. Hardcore colonial specialists typically collect by variety (major variety or die variety) and grade MUCH differently than either service -- not always undergrading, by the way. The grading and pricing realities of colonial coins do not translate as easily to a 70-point system as other US series.
Census information for series like Fugios, all state coppers, Massachusetts silver, etc. has been painstakingly assembled by dedicated experts for years -- and they still complain about it being inaccurate. PCGS Pops on those series are useful for surveying the certified population of an issue as long as the consumer of such information realizes that, in sharp contrast to many US series, only a small proportion of top-notch pieces have been certified.
<< <i> Abuell, though named for a nefarious counterfeiter, is also correct >>
Touché, but all should be alerted that in his younger years (not all THAT long ago) pistareen was known to cross numismatic borders using a passport issued in the name of William Lutwyche!
You would think he already had one?
Interesting info here. Thanks to the posters.
Miller is only a book to determine the die varieties of 1785-88 Connecticut coppers -- it doesn't cover anything but that, and the reprints of the books that are around are of wretched quality. If Connecticut die varieties are your primary interest, you'll need a copy of the rare original (The State Coinages of New England by Henry Miller and Hillyer Ryder, 1920, by the American Numismatic Society) or an auction catalogue that includes most of the known varieties -- like the B+M 1987 Taylor sale or the Stack's 2000 Perkins sale. The Perkins sale has the most up-to-date rarity info, but such info is constantly in a state of flux as more pieces are discovered, identified, and published.
If you're a beginner, start with the Redbook and Breen's Encyclopedia (the big black book, 1988) -- the information is neither complete nor perfect in either of them, but it's a great start with a lot of excellent info. Progressing beyond that will be a matter of what you decide to specialize in. Let us know your interests and we'll try to help out more! Each series has its own book or monograph for varieties, but the most up to date info is published in auction catalogues by major auctioneers and periodicals like the Colonial Newsletter or C4 Newsletter.
C4 aka the Colonial Coins Collectors Club is a group dedicated to collecting pre-federal coinages. the website is available here
However, I am a collector who 3 years ago was asking the very same questions you are asking now, so I can relate to what you are trying to ascertain, and I can tell you what I (through trial and error) figured out on my own:
For a good basic understanding of the general colonial market, the real rarity and desirability of the coins, accurate attribution of different types, etc. I would recommend that you invest in the following past catalogs as reference guides before buying any coins:
The 1987 Taylor catalog by Bowers noted by abuell
The 1979 - 1980 Garrett collection catalogs by Bowers (three volumes)
The 1987 - 1988 Norweb collection catalogs by Bowers (three volumes)
The 1996 Eliasberg collection catalog by Bowers volume 1
The 1988 Stack's Oechsner collection catalog
The 1968 New Netherland's 60th auction catalog
The 2001 Stack's Hain collection part 1
The 2003 Stack's Ford collection catalog part 1 (just last month)
There are hundreds of other catalogs that may be worth owning based on your particular specialty or interests, but these are the basic ones that will open your eyes as to what is what and why all the coins that are generally sold as being very rare simply aren't. They will also graphically illustrate for you the shortcomings of the 'pop report'.
Those above will run you $4 - 500 or so in total - not cheap, but I guarantee they will save you 10 times that amount in avoided mistakes in the long run.
If you want to know a good place to find old catalogs PM me and I'll pass you a couple of book and catalog dealer's names.
These catalogs plus the Breen Complete Encyclopedia book mentioned by Pistareen and the Redbook will get you started on the right foot.
And again, buy these before you buy any coins.