PRO Graded Mickey Mantle
Putty
Posts: 168
All: Check out this Auction.
As some of you know I am new to the hobby and I just purchased this card. I then learned that PRO is not a trusted name in the industry. As you can see the seller has very good feedback so I thought I was safe. I have not taken possesion of the card yet and now I am unsure of what I should do. Should I sign for the card when it comes, take a closer look at it and decide from there or refuse it and cancel the transaction with Visa? Please let me know what you think, I paid through Paypal using my Visa card so i can protect myself that way, however by doing do so I may lose the ability to ever use PayPal again and would suffer my first negative feedback through Ebay.
I have had several contacts with the seller prior to and after the transaction and they were professional and courteous, anyway I am unsure how to proceed....
As some of you know I am new to the hobby and I just purchased this card. I then learned that PRO is not a trusted name in the industry. As you can see the seller has very good feedback so I thought I was safe. I have not taken possesion of the card yet and now I am unsure of what I should do. Should I sign for the card when it comes, take a closer look at it and decide from there or refuse it and cancel the transaction with Visa? Please let me know what you think, I paid through Paypal using my Visa card so i can protect myself that way, however by doing do so I may lose the ability to ever use PayPal again and would suffer my first negative feedback through Ebay.
I have had several contacts with the seller prior to and after the transaction and they were professional and courteous, anyway I am unsure how to proceed....
Gregory Voit
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
0
Comments
lsuconnman@yahoo.com
Basic lessons learned: for vintage I would only buy PSA or SGC, only from a seller with fantastic feedback, and no private auctions under any circumstance. Good luck!
Eric
Be the bigger man and admit your mistake to him...then put your tail between your legs and ask him to take the card back. Tell him that once he gets it back in good shape you are asking him to refund $430 dollars. That way he still gets $31+ to cover his auction fees and shipping charges. He can then offer the card to the second place winner or resell it.
If he's an upstanding citizen he'll do it. More likely, he won't answer your request in which case I would either: (1) Have Visa halt the charge which will cause paypal to suspend your account until you pay them. In this case you'll lose future access to paypal. Or, (2) take the card and cut your losses. Chaulk it up to a lesson learned.
Personally, I'd make the suggestion in my first paragraph attractive enough for him to reply if at all possible. I'd rather lose $30-$50 then a few hundred. But remember, if he decides to let you send the card back you MUST make him sign for the card (returned receipt) so that you have proof of delivery. You never know, he may try to take the card and the money. If that happens go back to option (1) in the second paragraph.
As a personal rule I stay with PSA for vintage cards whenever possible. But I'll take SGC when I need to and cross-over later. For modern cards I also like BVG. Outside of these three I pretty much shy away from graded cards.
The other rule to live by when purchasing cards is if your not 100% positive...hold-off until you know better.
Just my 2 cents.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Here comes my 2 or 3 cents. I was burned on ebay about 6 months ago buy a seller that had NM scans of some
nice 1963 cards, but when I got them they were VG at best. In your case the first sign should have been that a $1200 card sold for 50%. I say do whatever it takes to get your money back even if it means a negative feedback. I personally have 6 and could care less as I have 950 positives. GET YOUR MONEY BACK- SCREW THE SELLER.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
There is no question here. The buyer should pay the seller and live with the card. If you are trying to cross it over it is at YOUR risk not the sellers. The seller never stated that it would cross over so don't assume it will. This is a lesson that the buyer has to learn the hard way. I fell prey to the same proposition. I won a PRO 10, 1970 Rose in hopes it would crossover. It came back as being trimmed. MY LOSS not the person I purchased it from. Now I have a very expensive trimmed card. I learned my lesson.
ChrisKK
I feel that if PRO, or any grading company, knowingly slabs a trimmed card it should negatively impact that company.
But I do not feel that after winning an auction you should renege on paying for the auction because you now don't want the card. If you bid and win you should pay for the auction.
Chris
Valrey Sports
PO Box 2806
Downey CA 90242
Also I just wanted to thank all who have responded to this it has been greatly appreciated..
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
Contact me privately through email. nmmjr@aol.com
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Putty, would you be interested in suing the seller for damages (and penalties and attorney's fees)?
Contact me privately through email. nmmjr@aol.com
Nick >>
Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
GO MARLINS! Home of the best fans in baseball!!
uniship - I will agree to disagree, but calling the seller a thief is way off base here.
nickM - what would you sue for???? Being gullible and/or inexperienced was what happened here. The seller has done nothing wrong. If you take that auction and replace the PRO with PSA none would have a problem with HOW the auction was presented. The fact that the seller has a PRO graded card is your issue. So what. PRO has graded many cards. Are they ALL trimmed?
It's not a crime to sell PRO graded cards, yet. It is also not the responsibility of the seller to educate buyers. This seller didn't force the buyer into bidding.
None comes into a hobby knowing everything. That's why they call it learning. You can not expect sellers, of anything, to ignore a contract (let's not forget that a bid is a binding contract) just because the buyer feels like it. If you think that this seller, with this auction, is taking advantage of buyers then you are wrong. How often have sellers sold cards that they called mint that are actually ex-mt at best? Do you sue them??? You might have a chance of a return with that, but not a graded card.
Let's face it if you want to go on a witch hunt, go after those TV shopping shows or the eBay sellers that are trying to sell something they don't have. We have ALL purchased something we shouldn't have but that's one way to learn what not to do in the future.
Putty, you want advice… complete your transaction, learn what questions to ask sellers BEFORE you bid, watch for the signs to avoid an auction/card and stay true to YOUR guidelines for YOUR collection.
Chris
Do you believe the card was trimmed? Do you believe the seller was aware it was trimmed? Do you think the seller, who is a major dealer in the PRO world, may trim cards himself before sending to PRO?
If your answers to even the first two of those questions are "yes", then you believe that the seller has committed a violation of California Business and Professions Code § 21671. That section provides for refund to the buyer of the full amount paid and a civil penalty for each violation of up to $5000.00. A violation of that section is also a violation of the California Unfair Business Practices Act, which provides additional remedies.
You ask if all PRO cards are trimmed. Of course not. Some are recolored or have other alterations. I do believe that no experienced dealer would regularly submit high-grade vintage superstar material to PRO for grading if he was not confident that it would be rejected by other grading companies.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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I have been on the short end of a PRO card also. I will not purchase another, I will think twice before buying from the seller as well. I do not feel litigation is the answer.
I will stand by my advice to Putty.
Chris
<< <i>Putty, would you be interested in suing the seller for damages (and penalties and attorney's fees)?
Contact me privately through email. nmmjr@aol.com
Nick >>
Hey Nick,
You told me the same thing about 3 or 4 months ago and I sent you all my info on a REAL fraud case. You did nothing...so why did you offer? No worries. The US district Attorneys Office is on my case. However, you're sadly mistaken if you think Putty has a case here. Stop wasting this poor chaps time.
uniship,
Morally...your right. This seller is a total joke. But Putty did know the product he was buying in this case and is responsible for his loss. This is a black and white issue. Putty made a mistake. The seller is not liable.
Everyone else,
ChrisKK is absolutely 100% correct. This seller advertised what he was selling...a 1956 Topps PRO 7.5 Mickey Mantle. That's exactly what Putty got. Now I agree with those of you who say morally this guys a jerk. But legally he did nothing wrong and Putty will be wasting his time if he pursues legal action of any kind.
It's the buyers job to know what he's buying before he bids. It's that simple.
When a new person to the hobby comes to this board for expert advice I suggest people hold their tongue unless they actually know what they're talking about.
Sorry to rag on ya'll...but Putty needs to know how it really is.
Tom Papa
<< <i>...You ask if all PRO cards are trimmed. Of course not. Some are recolored or have other alterations. I do believe that no experienced dealer would regularly submit high-grade vintage superstar material to PRO for grading if he was not confident that it would be rejected by other grading companies.
Nick >>
Nick,
I would have to disagree. I spent the past few days travelling around South Florida (Tampa to West Palm Beach) going to local card shops. I found PRO graded cards in a lot of dealers' inventories. I think some less experienced card dealers, as well as inexperienced collectors, use PRO as a cheap alternative to the "more respected" grading companies. Several years ago, when I first started getting in to graded cards, I looked at a few grading companies, trying to find the most affordable option that provided a good product. I looked at PRO and some other questionable companies. I decided not to go with any specific company until I found out more about the industry. Several months later, after purchasing some PSA graded cards, I knew that I had found what I was looking for. It may cost a little more, but it's worth it.
I went to a small card show today, and spent about an hour looking through a lot of raw '57 Topps Baseball cards that a particular dealer had. I bought a few commons that will grade 7-8 (hopefully) and while talking to the dealer, I brought up the topic of grading. He didn't care for grading too much - said he tried it a few times: He had some mid '70s cards that were graded by Capital (or Capitol?) Grading. He told me about having a Johnny Bench rookie that was really nice and not being able to sell it for $75 at shows. He sent it to Beckett and got an 8 back - it was the highest graded Bench rookie that Beckett had graded. He told me he sold the card on ebay for over $100.
Anyway, back to the topic. Chris is right. The seller, whether he is morally reprehensible or not, is not violating any law, or ebay policy for that matter.
No matter how you feel about PRO grading, you can not blame an independent seller on ebay for selling these cards. Some just don't know any better. For what it's worth, I believe this one did, but until PRO no longer exists, nothing can really be done.
JEB.
As far as suing the seller??? For what???
If there a was not a scan then I can see his point, but the scan tells all for the most part.
Virtualizard and others - this seller has plenty of modern cards ungraded and graded by PSA or GAI. Why is it that with 1 exception (a Bird/Magic rookie that got a PSA 7), all of his vintage cards are PRO graded (65 PRO cards, including many '50s HOFers)? If you look at his large previews on many of these cards, it is patently obvious if you know what to look for that they have been trimmed - the edges are not straight. The seller also knows enough to include a free PSA, SGC, or BGS card with the purchase, allowing him to include PSA in the title. Now, under these circumstances, what would you believe that he innocently chose PRO for his grading. Also, if you think that he might choose PRO because they grade higher, consider that he is selling most of these cards for less than a PSA card 2 grade lowers would sell for (and his '40 Play Ball Williams in PRO 8.5 went for less than a PSA 5 of that card went for a week later). Could he be unaware of the price differences? I think the answer is clearly no.
Now, put aside the question of whether the card is overgraded (and any grading company that would give that a 7.5 either hires Stevie Wonder to grade or goes by the BCCG scale). That's not what the illegality is.
California makes it illegal to alter a sports card and not disclose the alterations. If you believe that t2inc (Valrey Sportscards, real name Jose Vallejo Jr.) was aware that the vintage PRO cards he is selling were altered - and especially if you believe he altered them himself, then you believe he violated the law and can be sued for the purchase price and a civil penalty (and potentially other moneys).
Do you believe the seller knew the Mantle was trimmed? Yes or no.
If this is unclear to you, consider brucemo's test with PRO cards months ago. They put a PSA 5 he had in a PRO 9 holder. There's no problem with selling that card. It's not altered. It's just overgraded. He also trimmed a Mychal Thompson card himself as a test - they put it in a PRO 10 holder. If he were to sell that in California and simply say it's a PRO 10 (which he wouldn't, because he's a good man), he would be violating California law, because he knew it to be altered and didn't say so. The situation is murkier with the cards he sent them which PSA had previously rejected, because an argument can be made that he was not aware of an alteration and thought there had been a wrongful rejection by PSA. [Note to all - I am not saying brucemo did anything wrong or would do anything wrong. Testing PRO and finding them incompetent is not just OK, it's a public service.
Caveat emptor has its limits. Altering the card and not disclosing it falls outside them.
Nick
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I'm not disagreeing with you. Read my previous post. I said that I do believe the seller knows that he is selling altered cards. But, having them professionally graded (I'm really stretching the definition here) by PRO, should pass liability onto the grading company, don't you think? I think what the seller is doing is ethically wrong, but I'm not sure that it is illegal. If the cards were sold raw, that would be a different story.
As I said before, until PRO (among others) no longer exists, nothing can really be done. Maybe some of you collectors who have mentioned being scammed when you first got into the grading game could get together and pool your PRO graded cards to file a class action lawsuit against PRO. Maybe if there were enough people involved, PRO could take a large enough hit to put them out of business. Just a thought.
JEB.
Suppose the people behind PRO are honest but technically incompetent at catching alterations (ok, that would make them CTA). Why should a crooked seller be able to pass off his alterations by getting their inexpert opinion on them? If you want to discourage altering cards, you don't give a seller any escape hatch.
Nick
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in an court atmosphere there are not any grading police? so who is going to say for sure that the cards in pro holders are trimmed?they could send them to psa or sgc or even gai but in a court system it would be one grading company's word against another>. this would be tossed so fast. putty should take his lump and move on.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
That's my point. Once a card is graded, we can only take the word of the grading company that the card is authentic and unaltered. That's the whole idea behind paying money to have cards graded (or should I say, that was the original intention before PRO came along). The worst attorney in the country could get the seller acquitted on this charge.
JEB.
ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
This isn't "one grading company's word against another's". This is the words of multiple respectable grading companies (don't forget that PSA and GAI are both based near Los Angeles) against a seller whose actions look bizarre and evidence a consciousness of guilt. Oh, and don't forget that some of the people who sold lower grade unaltered cards to him would probably be witnesses for the plaintiff.
Depending on what the evidence shows (i.e., does the seller try to turn on PRO), it is possible that they could become a defendant too (i.e., if it comes out that they make some promises that they will not reject cards).
We are not talking about a criminal prosecution where the buyer would have to prove alterations beyond a reasonable doubt. We are talking about the civil court standard of preponderance of the evidence, which means "more likely than not".
Suits on behalf of a large number of the cheated buyers would likely put this seller out of business.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
Keep us posted with the details and I wish you luck.
JEB.
<< <i>PUTTY is this you? >>
jackstraw,
That's not Putty. This is.
Last night I saw the infamous Mantle card Putty bought on eBay and examine it rather thoroughly. The card is definitely trimmed across the top and right sides. Under magnification those trims are obvious. It also has a small surface stuff and a small light water stain in the "crowd".
The top right corner is a little greater than 90 degrees open while the top left and bottom right corners are just under 90 degrees open. There's no doubt in my mind that the trimming was performed to lessen the rather nasty appearance of the top right corner. That corner must've has a large section missing at some point.
When all is said and done the only criminal act performed here was by PRO. Putty learned his lesson that hard way as many of us have at one or more times in this hobby.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
I'm really starting to like the idea of PSA holdering altered cards and not giving them a grade and just putting "Altered" on the holder. This would give honest sellers a way to sell a clearly altered card without giving themselves a bad name.
<< <i>I'm really starting to like the idea of PSA holdering altered cards and not giving them a grade and just putting "Altered" on the holder. This would give honest sellers a way to sell a clearly altered card without giving themselves a bad name. >>
I agree. I would love to see PSA certify ALL card. They certify them as PSA 1-10 and add qualifiers. Why not certify the card is trimmed or altered in some way? I guess playing devils advocate on this topic leaves me to feel that if PSA did in fact certify alter cards they'd open up a whole can of worms.
Imagine the headaches of dealing with us folks whole get our cards back as "Trimmed Across the Top". In some cases we'd say "Wow, I guess I missed it". In others we'd simply flip out and say PSA doesn't have a clue. We'd crack the card out and either re-submit it or send it elsewhere.
That said, I would still love to see PSA perform this service. I don't think it would be any more or less argumentative then the current services they provide.
Wabbit - as far as your question on what we should do if we find a PRO card in a collection, I do not believe it should be thrown out. Even an altered card has some value, and I don't put the burden on a buyer to determine if someone prior to him has altered an already-slabbed card. I don't believe that analogy is helpful in the case of this seller - he has virtually nothing but PRO cards for his vintage material and I have not seen anyone say that they believe he is innocent.
BTW, I own one PRO graded card - it's a Mike Bossy autograph (manufacturer certified) from UD Retro. PRO only gave it an 8.5! I felt perfectly comfortable buying this card, because even if the card has been altered, the autograph is still genuine, and I needed Bossy for my hockey HOF autograph collection (and I only paid about $6 for it).
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
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They should be destroyed to maintain the integrity of our hobby.
Nick
Reap the whirlwind.
Need to buy something for the wife or girlfriend? Check out Vintage Designer Clothing.
<< <i>Sorry to disagree, but an altered card has no place in the hobby.
They should be destroyed to maintain the integrity of our hobby. >>
They may not have a place in the hobby but they're here. That's reality. So I'd at least like to know where they are.
When I was a kid in 1956, I trimmed many a 1955 and 56 Topps card to get sharp corners for flipping. Roll forward about 40 years, and I found dozens and dozens of these cards in a box set aside at my Mom's. I sold them to an auctioneer for $40. The lot included a Clemente, Killebrew, Ford, etc. About 2 weeks later, some of the stars and semi stars showed up in a card store of higher repute in Waterford NY, in screwdowns at book price. I asked the owner whom I knew what he paid for them and he said he got the whole lot for $90. The cards did sell and he made money. My point....some schmo bought those cards, perhaps unknowingly, and when he realizes what he did, he may never participate in our hobby again. In hindsight, I should have destroyed the cards or kept them out of circulation as a conversation piece or as a reminder of what we all used sports cards for in the 50's and 60's.
With respect to the question if I would turn down a 52 Mick for $500 that knowingly had been trimmed? The answer is an unqualified "yes".
Think about it....we all laugh about guys paying $3,000 for some modern 1 of 1 card, and then the next year the card will only get $800 from a dealer or online. What about all those PSA 10 Jordan rookies that some collector (?) paid anywhere from $35,000-50,000 several years ago? Is that person still in the hobby? I don't think so. We need more integrity in this hobby, not forged autographs, trimmed cards, gambling with new packs, etc.
isn't selling the card for what it is showing integrity.
my point is that not everyone out there can afford $25k for a mantle, if you have your choice of a psa 1 that looks like sh** or a card that the seller tells you was trimmed somewhere in the past 50 years , which is the collector on a budget going to take? which is he going to enjoy more? for some collectors , it's purely about the nostalgia of owning the most popular card in sports history without breaking the bank. I am sure this is open to debate and I can see both sides.
cards were originally issues to be played with, read , looked at and enjoyed so that the fan could relate back to his favorite players 365 days a year. somewhere along the line it became more than that. to destroy a card that is going to give someone great pleasure and bring back memories which they otherwise could not afford to does not make sense imo