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ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 12:39AM

LanLord · November 11, 2003 12:53AM

In fact, I don't see it now!

Russ · November 11, 2003 12:54AM

Who are you kidding? Red X's are extremely common.

Russ, NCNE

mgoodm3 · November 11, 2003 1:08AM

Looks like it's linked to a file on your computer, that won't work, unless you wanted to post a red "x"

Russ · November 11, 2003 1:16AM

Here's the image:

Russ, NCNE

kranky · November 11, 2003 1:46AM

I recognize that Albany church penny from the Redbook, but always wondered how it got in there. Surely there had to be other "tokens" from that era not included in the book.

How rare are they? What does the "D" mean?

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 2:11AM

kranky · November 11, 2003 2:23AM

I didn't know they were that rare. Not disputing that they have a place in the Redbook, I just wondered why other contemporary tokens didn't make the cut.

Interesting that we don't know exactly what the "D" means, but somewhere I remember reading that the mintage was 1,000. I wonder how someone figured that out.

Weren't the ones with "D" made from the same die as the without-D ones (i.e. the D was added to the existing die)?

topstuf · November 11, 2003 2:32AM

Hmmmm.....could the "D" have stood for the ..............."DEVIL?"

(in church lady voice)

grip · November 11, 2003 3:10AM

Anything on the reverse?.Neat.Al

BigE · November 11, 2003 3:13AM

10 to 12 known, and this may be the finest known of those-but someone must have posted something rarer than this before

--------------BigE

hetman · November 11, 2003 3:28AM

It looks like there's some kind of engraving to the right of "CHURCH". What could it be?

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 3:34AM

<< 10 to 12 known, and this may be the finest known of those-but someone must have posted something rarer than this before

--------------BigE >>

Lets watch the language please.

Someone may have posted something rarer than this, but a less impactful headline draws less interest

.

And there aren't 10 to 12 known. There are 10 - 12 combined of two distinct varieties - and I would say that the 'D' vs 'No D' distinction is a far more noticeable difference than lots of other varieties listed for Federal issues in the Redbook. So this particular coin is one of 4 (again, to the best of my knowledge).

Anyway, its an obscure coin that I think is pretty cool, but its not exactly MS69 silver dollar flashy.

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 3:36AM

<< Anything on the reverse?.Neat.Al >>

These are uniface - there is nothing on the reverse.

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 3:38AM

<< It looks like there's some kind of engraving to the right of "CHURCH". What could it be? >>

The letters visible to the right are the remnants of the host coin over which this piece was struck - apparently a 1756 William and Mary Penny.

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 3:48AM

<< I didn't know they were that rare. Not disputing that they have a place in the Redbook, I just wondered why other contemporary tokens didn't make the cut.

Interesting that we don't know exactly what the "D" means, but somewhere I remember reading that the mintage was 1,000. I wonder how someone figured that out.

Weren't the ones with "D" made from the same die as the without-D ones (i.e. the D was added to the existing die)? >>

If I may quote from the 1921 Jenks sale catalog: On January 4, 1790 the trustees of the First Presbyterian Church of Albany resolved that 1,000 coppers be stamped Church Penny and placed with the treasurer to exchange with the members of the congregation at the rate of 12 for one shilling in order to add respect to the weekly collection.

I'm not sure anyone knows or could know if they actually made 1,000 or not. I guess its possible. I suppose they could also have made 32 and then decided to stop.

As for the D being added to the die - I do not know.

hetman · November 11, 2003 3:52AM

An overstrike. That makes sense. Is there any record that lets you know it's from an 1856 Penny? Just curious. I like Colonials! Too bad I can't afford to collect everything I like.

ColonialCoinUnion · November 11, 2003 3:57AM

<< An overstrike. That makes sense. Is there any record that lets you know it's from an 1856 Penny? Just curious. I like Colonials! Too bad I can't afford to collect everything I like. >>

The colonial experts for American Numismatic Rarities and Stack's confirmed the undertype identification (its a 1756 coin - not 1856) made by a dealer. Apparently it was not that hard for them to tell as they know what to look for, but I had no idea.

I can't afford everything I want to collect either, and I do feel very fortunate to own this which by all rights should be either in the Smithsonian or at least in a NY museum somewhere. And it was a lot less than an MS69 Morgan!

hetman · November 11, 2003 4:14AM

Thanks CCU.

As for belonging in a museum, perhaps one day the government will decide that that's exactly where our coins should be.

FDR pulled it off (well, something similar); why not someone else in the future?

abuell · November 11, 2003 6:33AM

John-

Absolutely awesome! Provenance? Were you hiding this in Boston?

ConstellatioCollector · November 11, 2003 10:43AM

Very nice Church Penny!!!

Nic · November 11, 2003 10:52AM

Thank you. I had little knowledge of this issue. Great post! K

kranky · November 11, 2003 10:56AM

I'm glad to learn a bit more about these. And in my eagerness to ask some questions, I forgot to say - awesome coin!

Shamika · February 20, 2005 8:45AM

Just thought I'd TTT this great thread.

PutTogether · February 20, 2005 9:00AM

That's seriously awesome. I just started a thread about neat but obscure low mintage coins.

mdwoods · February 20, 2005 9:09AM

<< Thank you. I had little knowledge of this issue. Great post! K >>

I feel the same.

grip · February 20, 2005 9:21AM

Ditto! Always learning something new on these boards.
Al

Lakesammman · February 20, 2005 9:28AM

That's the first one I've ever see that looked worth owning - what's the story behind that coin??

ColonialCoinUnion · February 20, 2005 9:28AM

This was an unexpected blast from the past -

This was originally posted back in ancient history (2003) and since that time a couple of things have changed:

#1. I learned how to post photos here without having to email them to Russ first.

#2 The Ford May, 2004 auction took place, and with it a 5th Church Penny with D example (which was overstruck dramatically and was sort of a hard to decipher VFish looking thing).

ColonialCoinUnion · February 20, 2005 9:32AM

<< That's the first one I've ever see that looked worth owning - what's the story behind that coin?? >>

I agree - it is the only one I have seen (in person or in pictures) that I considered worth owning. It came from Tom Reynolds.

Nic · February 20, 2005 10:01AM

Again .... killer coin. One of my favorites also came from Tom. K

D · February 20, 2005 11:03AM

You bought this penny? May I know about how much it cost?

-Daniel

Shamika · February 20, 2005 12:40PM

I don't know what he paid for it, but you can bet it was a five figure bid!

sumnom · February 20, 2005 12:57PM

Thanks for posting the image. This is wonderful.

michael · February 20, 2005 1:18PM

superlative

this is an amazing church penny my forebearers who lived in fonda ny and one of them was my direct decendant fought in the revolution fonda ny is a small town but played a large part in the american revolution fonda is like 50 miles north of albany and my family where members of this church in albany on my fathers side...................... i bet they used these church pennies too

i wonder if they maybe handled your church penny ccu???

i love your church penny it looked unc to me with great color and lustre and i would say in my limited scope of experience overall the best of the best i have ever seen or could even imagine would be out there like yours

simply amazing

one of the best threads on these forums in the last year or so

techeff · February 20, 2005 1:31PM

Is this a US mint issue or is this a Medal? Just asking... Also, where can I find it on the PCGS Pop reports. Thanks!

michael · February 20, 2005 1:44PM

it is not a mint issue it is not a medal it is a privately issued church token by the first pres church and since it was marked penny as by english standards i would not be surprised if some where used as payment for goods and services in the central albany city limits

i am sure if any are graded they are listed under the colonial coin section of the pop reports

techeff · February 20, 2005 1:52PM

OK, we're talking about a "rare" token on the US coin forum..

Well, In that case... I own the last Hawaiian commemorative error medal minted and the first correction minted. Doesn't get anymore unique than that...

sumnom · February 20, 2005 2:29PM

this is an amazing church penny my forebearers who lived in fonda ny and one of them was my direct decendant fought in the revolution fonda ny is a small town but played a large part in the american revolution fonda is like 50 miles north of albany and my family where members of this church in albany on my fathers side

Faulknerian.

Conder101 · February 20, 2005 2:32PM

Can we reconfirm that undertype? It probably isn't a british coin because if it was 1756 it wouldn't be William and Mary, and there were no copper pennies until 1797 (1788 for some private issuses.)

Bear · February 20, 2005 2:47PM

The D stands for, "Damned if you do and damned if you dont".

sumnom · February 20, 2005 2:47PM

!

ColonialCoinUnion · February 20, 2005 6:56PM

The undertype was originally identified by John Kraljevich -

I thought 1756 W&M was correct, but I may have remembered it wrong.

ColonialCoinUnion · February 20, 2005 7:21PM

<< OK, we're talking about a "rare" token on the US coin forum..

>>

'A Guidebook of United States Coins' by R.S. Yeoman lists the Church Penny on page 60. Its rare. it is collected as part of the US colonial series. It is listed on the PCGS pop report under 'colonials'. I posted that it was the rarest Redbook coin posted on the site and I'll stick with that until someone posts one rarer. TDN? Legend? Somone definately owns something rarer.

<< Well, In that case... I own the last Hawaiian commemorative error medal minted and the first correction minted. Doesn't get anymore unique than that... >>

What is a Hawaiian commemorative error medal? Is it a US coin? Is in the Redbook? Does PCGS slab them? Is it on the pop report? Start a thread about it - it sounds like it could be pretty cool.

Pistareen · February 20, 2005 7:30PM

If I remember correctly, this was on a William III halfpenny -- so the undertype is circa 1696. I don't think the date is visible, but the shape of King Bill's head is unlike the bust on any other copper coin of the era.

If I saw it again I could point out the salient details of the undertype. All of these are overstruck, but it is very unusual for so much undertype to be visible -- mostly because the awful coppers the Church was trying to replace in the offering baskets were usually worn nearly slick. The 1787 New York City Council commentary on coppers in circulation confirms this fact in so many words.

This is a great item, and I'd love to see it again.

The aforementioned John K.

tradedollarnut · February 21, 2005 2:54AM

TDN? Legend? Somone definately owns something rarer

Various rarities have been posted on this site including:

1870-S half dime [unique]
1873-CC no arrows dime [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on breast [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on wing [5-6]
1804 $10 proof [3-5]
1913 Lib nickel [5]
1885 trade dollar [5]
1884 trade dollar [10]

Bustman · February 21, 2005 3:56AM

<< TDN? Legend? Somone definately owns something rarer

Various rarities have been posted on this site including:

1870-S half dime [unique]
1873-CC no arrows dime [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on breast [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on wing [5-6]
1804 $10 proof [3-5]
1913 Lib nickel [5]
1885 trade dollar [5]
1884 trade dollar [10] >>

Just to name a few.

techeff · February 21, 2005 4:15AM

What is a Hawaiian commemorative error medal? Is it a US coin? Is in the Redbook? Does PCGS slab them? Is it on the pop report? Start a thread about it - it sounds like it could be pretty cool.

You're right. That is a very interesting coin and I'm glad you posted it. Sorry about the hard time.

BTW, what Hawaiian commem error medal is in the Redbook?

ColonialCoinUnion · February 21, 2005 7:42AM

<< TDN? Legend? Someone definately owns something rarer

Various rarities have been posted on this site including:

1870-S half dime [unique]
1873-CC no arrows dime [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on breast [unique]
Brasher doubloon, punch on wing [5-6]
1804 $10 proof [3-5]
1913 Lib nickel [5]
1885 trade dollar [5]
1884 trade dollar [10] >>

Sure, but were any of these posted before November, 11 2003 at about noon?

Conder101 · February 21, 2005 4:44PM

Ok, a 1696 William III HALF penny would make sense.

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