Patterns in the Heritage Sale
gemtone65
Posts: 901 ✭✭✭
At first glance it appears that, for the most part, patterns in the Heritage sale went very cheaply, especially in comparison to published prices from the recent Stack's sale. Do you agree with this observation? And, if so, was there that much difference in overall quality of offerings? Or, do the results suggest something important about Stack's quality of bidders its having an active live bidding competition, in comparison to Heritage having many internet bidders who have not viewed the items in person and an auction venue that has far fewer live bidders?
(For those with a bent towards humor, please restrain yourselves from commenting about a distinction bewteen "live" and "unlive" bidders.)
(For those with a bent towards humor, please restrain yourselves from commenting about a distinction bewteen "live" and "unlive" bidders.)
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Rick....Andy - what are your thought regarding the other patterns??
The fact that the sale was not held in conjunction with a major show also impacted the prices realized particularly for the more common material. IMO
Let's look at the 561 that sold last night. It closed for $3910 It was a Proof63
A Pr64 went for $3565 this summer, and a Pr66 went for $3680 in the summer of '99. Now I can say the market has heated up since the summer of '99 and write off that one. But the other... Looks like a strong price to me.
One sees the same deal with the J-1771 at PR63 it went for $2300, last summer a PR64 went for $2760, and in early '01 another PR63 went for $1610. Things look good here again to me the layman.
Sorry if my opinion is uninformed. I'm new to looking at this area of the hobby, and I'm basing my opinions on the info which I can see. If I'm off base, I'm sure someoen here will educate me :-)
Myriads
Congrats - nice looking pattern. Do you see a price differential developing for red patterns like there is for red small cents?? If there is a registry, will red be worth 2 points more??
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Just incidentally, it also appeared that a large portion of the the very high-grade, silver type did not sell well and is in the bargain bin. However, it appears that almost all the good old collector coins (AU50 to MS64) in the older silver type sold at strong prices.
It would be interesting to see the percentage of PCGS/NGC copper patterns graded in full red.
New collectors, please educate yourself before spending money on coins; there are people who believe that using numismatic knowledge to rip the naïve is what this hobby is all about.
In answer to your question, PCGS has graded about 3000 copper patterns. Approximately 200 are graded red. Curiously, a single year, 1879, accounts for about 40 of them.
I was happy with the purchase of the 1004 but disappointed that I missed lot #11187 by a mere $100. Kinda funny when the bid increment should have been $250 but I've been a floor bidder enough times to know how that happens
I attended the Stacks sale and I thought the more generic patterns brought modest prices while the higher profile silver (big four) and gold patterns brought very strong money.
I think the venue and lack of real headliner coins (eg. Bickford ten in gold) had a negative impact on the Heritage prices realized.
I bid on about 40 patterns on the phone. They were, for the most part, IMHO, the only really nice coins in the pattern section (save a handful of others). I starred about ten as spectacular. I won ten (two of my starred items), several of which a bit higher than I had wanted to go. All the others went significantly higher than my limits. I looked at the post-auction offerings this morning, and made an offer on one. Only one of the others was on my list, but it was too high.
I haven't had a chance to review many prices beyond my list, as I was busy at the tournament, but I feel the results support Andy's previous statement that the cream of the crop remains on fire, and the rest, in many cases, can be had for reasonable prices.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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I really did not want it to sell but I wanted to "test" the market and see what it was worth. It got bid up to $17,000 plus the juice. The reserve placed the price at $17,500 plus the 15%, one step below my reserve.
Considering I paid $14K and change only 17 months ago asking $20,700 which is over a 40% increase from what I paid to acquire the pattern just a short time ago is too much and too fast. 20-25% increases per annum is more than enough!
I privately admitted to Legend that I did not think the pattern was worth more than $17K PERIOD.
It is a former PCGS PR65 from the early 1990's that must have gotten crossed/cracked to NGC around the 1998 time frame.
It does have some nice cameo look to it but it does not have the brilliancy and flash of my earlier 1870's aluminum patterns.
I realize you could make the same argument about any graded coin. But, when a coin is very rare, and there are few if any substitutes at any grade, it just doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me to pay more simply for the holder.
Recognize that I'm not saying that higher quality isn't worth more, perhaps much more. But if I have a chance to purchase a cheaper lower graded pattern Judd number with more eye appeal than higher graded more expensive one, the choice for me would be quite easy.
When a pattern is finest known....I find it comical that upgrading it from a PCGS PR65 to a NGC PR66, makes it any more desireable when there are only 2 others known!
I would have preferred it in the older PCGS holder!
Gemtone - Give me a break! Pattern buyers pay lower premiums for upgrades than collectors of MOST other series.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
One day, though, perhaps I'll get my "revenge." I decided to keep a few pattern coins dated 1871 in my collection -- mostly the major silver pop 1 pieces, including at least one on your want list, which is the only one graded. It's straight from the Garrett collection.
A high % of solid and PQ coins from the 1987-1995 era have upgraded, especially in the last 3 years.
roadrunner
As for not keeping them longer, all I can say is I started collecting patterns from the Gilhousen sale in 1972, and ended with the Garrett sale in 1979. In between I purchased pieces from some top collections, including 3 from River Oaks. So, I held on to them for
16-23 years, which can hardly be called a quick turnover. And yet, in large part because of grading firm inconsistencies, some shrewd players were able to make far more profits in a very short time frame as a result of simply getting an upgrade from the grading services than I was able to earn over a much longer from holding on to the same coins and getting them graded just once. Without getting into too much detail, suffice it to say that I think this scenario, obviously played out many times elsewhere, is one of the dirty little "secrets" of the coin market that you're not likely to read about in the numismatic press.
Just hang in there just a little longer and you will be even more handsomely rewarded!!
Wondercoin
So what thrilling silver patterns do you have left?
That red face is for the fact that I just realized that I did not know how to spell it right either!
I think the Boiler78 and Lakesammman pattern pedigrees are .....oh well, never mind
I disagree!
Even if we're just talking about patterns, I'd add the following to the list: Woodin, Farouk, Wilkison, and Lustig. The list would get longer if I took more than eight seconds to think about it.
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.