World Trade Center Coins and Authencity
Raymac
Posts: 14
I have seen numerous coins on sale that have supposedly been recovered from the World Trade Center and I have read some of the threads about them on this board but I think there has been a really important question that has not been asked. Are these coins really from the World Trade Center?
At first I thought PCGS would not put thier name to something that has not been properly documented but I wrote them a letter over a week ago asking what their crteria was that they used to determin if a coin had come from The World Trade Center and to provide documentation of that, so far there has been no answear.
This silence now leads me to the thought, that maybe these coins are not really from the World Trade Center or do not have a traceable Provenance, as it would be in the best Interest of PCGS to provide this infomation if it exsists and if it does not it would cast a shadow over their reputation as a reputable company and could very well make them an accessory to fraud.
I would like to ask if anyone can provide any documentation on these coins and if there is none, I would like to suggest that those who may have bought these coins consider going to the proper authoritys as you may be a victim of fraud.
At first I thought PCGS would not put thier name to something that has not been properly documented but I wrote them a letter over a week ago asking what their crteria was that they used to determin if a coin had come from The World Trade Center and to provide documentation of that, so far there has been no answear.
This silence now leads me to the thought, that maybe these coins are not really from the World Trade Center or do not have a traceable Provenance, as it would be in the best Interest of PCGS to provide this infomation if it exsists and if it does not it would cast a shadow over their reputation as a reputable company and could very well make them an accessory to fraud.
I would like to ask if anyone can provide any documentation on these coins and if there is none, I would like to suggest that those who may have bought these coins consider going to the proper authoritys as you may be a victim of fraud.
0
Comments
Just my $.02
jjroll
Tonight is "Ask David Hall (HRH) Night", so if you go to the Q&A Forum and read how to submit a question, he may answer you.
It is every Tuesday night.
I've been told I tolerate fools poorly...that may explain things if I have a problem with you. Current ebay items - Nothing at the moment
All I can say is the silence around this does not reflect very well on these company's and from my point of view looks very suspicious.
jjroll
<< <i>All I can say is the silence around this does not reflect very well on these company's and from my point of view looks very suspicious. >>
Personally, I think this is ridiculous. Rarely can David Hall answer every question that's posed to him, and depending on when you asked your question, he might not have seen it.
Also, coins were taken straight from the WTC vault, and I'm sure PCGS wouldn't just slap on a false label. I guarantee to you that they didn't commit fraud, and think that there is nothing suspicious about this at all.
Jeremy
So I feel enough time has passed. As I think on their Website they say they will try to respond within 24 hours, as far as asking David Hall goes I understand, with that segment they can't answear all questions, but not responding to a direct E-mail to their company and parent company asking for information strikes me as not being right.
If they ever do respond I will post it here. I have not even received a response saying thank you for the e-mail we need some time to find the infomation you are requesting.
So without any information from them stating what their criteria was in making their determination that a coin came from The World Trade center, it makes it hard to discern if something with their name on it has came from the World Trade Center, As the critria could be as little as someone sending in a coin and saying this came from the World Trade Center and them putting their endorsment on it, just because something says this came from the World Trade Center does not make it true, if there's no paper trail to back it up, and to date they have not provided that infomation.
The real question is, why would you want a WTC coin??? The only WTC coin I would ever even consider was one that was issued with the endorsement of one of the victim's groups w/all proceeds going to charity........not sure that there are any such things.........
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
<< <i>This silence now leads me to the thought, that maybe these coins are not really from the World Trade Center or do not have a traceable Provenance >>
Asinine, pure asinine. Perhaps, a week and a half is not a long enough time for a response. A company that is inundated with work orders and a backlog spanning two months may not have prioritized your letter at the top. Now don't get me wrong, you're special, just like everyone else, and deserve to be the number 1 customer despite never having spent a dollar, dime, penny, nickel, quarter, trime, or any other denomination with PCGS. Funny, your tirade gave me a thought, perhaps you have psychiatric problems and/or you're one of the numismatwits trolling around here under a "secret" 2nd or 3rd identity. Get a life and get spellcheck.
<< <i>Your proof is the slab! PCGS is not just about grading, they also guarantee the authenticity! >>
Why was Jadecoin banned? Refresh my memory.
This again brings up the issue of "pedigree". Just how certain is it that the pedigree is accurate?
I find it interesting that when someone can't attack the content they attack the person. I did not know we had reverted to school yard name calling here, but thank you for the laugh as you have demonstrated your maturity in such an admirable way ( To be read as sarcasm).
<< <i>The important question here is just what was done to authenticate the coins in the first place? Did PCGS have a representative present to see the coins being recovered? After recovery were the coins placed under seal? Did they just take someone's word for it?
This again brings up the issue of "pedigree". Just how certain is it that the pedigree is accurate? >>
Thank you, when I started this string it was in the hope of getting an answear for a very simple question that you have been kind enough to reiterate here. It is not my intent to debate the morality of buying a coin that could be from The World Trade Center or any other side debates as I think they have been covered in other strings.
All I wanted to know is what criterion was used when PCGS slabbed and put their endorsment on certain coins as having been recovered from the World Trade Center.
As far as Time goes, most companys I know of take great pride in Customer service so a basic "thank you for the E-mail we will get back to you" is not too much to ask for. I welcome anyone else to post how long it took them to get a response to a question, as I don't think it's a question of them being too busy. I think it's more of a question of they don't like the subject matter.
WHOA... HOLD ON A MINUTE
These coins aren't submitted by any old Joe Schmo. Collector's Universe took a shipment and slabbed them... they never have been, nor never will be, coins submitted by the general public... they were a one time deal.
I repeat, the general public DID NOT SUBMIT THESE COINS. They were taken FROM THE VAULTS, and sent to CU... there should be NO QUESTION OF AUTHENTICITY HERE...
Thats strange, I went over your post again and all I seem to be reading are generalizations about why they may have not responded and a personal attack nothing at all to do with content.
http://www.loper.org/~george/trends/2003/Aug/975.html
'The World Trade Center was all about capitalism, so perhaps it isn't surprising that coins recovered unscathed from the rubble of the Sept. 11, 2001, terrorist attacks are on the market as collectors' items.
But the price markups being charged and the use of packaging with a 'Sept. 11' theme have some coin experts cringing.
The coins-some gold, others platinum, but mostly silver-were in an underground vault below 4 World Trade Center that belonged to ScotiaMocatta, the precious-metals trading unit of Bank of Nova Scotia, also known as Scotiabank. A Bank of Nova Scotia spokeswoman said a coin specialist and wholesaler approached Bank of Nova Scotia and offered to buy some of the coins from the Toronto bank. The coins are being sold in plastic coin holders emblazoned with the phrase '9-11-01 WTC Ground Zero Recovery.' The bank isn't involved in the sale of the coins. ,
No one has disputed that the coins can be sold legally, but that doesn't mean the sales sit well with everyone, including some coin fans.
'It's morbid, disgusting and shocks the senses that any individual or corporation could capitalize on the Sept. 11 tragedy in this horrid way,' said Scott A. Travers, a coin authority and author of 'The Insider's Guide to U.S. Coin Values 2003.'
'This is a rather extreme case of making money with the World Trade Center,' said Ute Wartenberg Kagan, executive director of the American Numismatic Society, a collectors' group in New York City. Separately, at the national group for coin collectors, the American Numismatic Association, public-relations director Steve Bobbitt said his group hasn't 'taken a position on these coins. ... I think the collecting hobby will be the final arbiters.'
The prices are striking, even by the standards of souvenir collecting. For example, among the Ground Zero coins, a one-ounce gold Krugerrand, a common gold coin issued by South Africa, has been offered for $1,195. By comparison, an ounce of gold is priced on the market at less than $350.
A gold half-ounce 'Sept. 11' coin is going for $749. A gold one-tenth ounce Krugerrand recently sold for $239. 'There are Krugerrands that carry legitimate premiums, and these coins are not them,' Mr. Travers said.
The sellers of the coins defend the sales and the prices.
'There may not be a coin that has as much history as these do,' said Mark Renstrom, a salesman of the coins at Preferred Customer Club, a Minneapolis marketing company controlled by Asset Marketing Services Inc. The parent company also sells coins for and does promotion work for the British Royal Mint in North America, but that mint disavows any connection with the 'Sept. 11' coins. A representative in North America for the British Royal Mint said that although marketing ties exist between the mint and Preferred Customer Club, 'It was not in any way connected with the product.'
Bank of Nova Scotia said it has tried not to cash in on the terrorist attacks. The bank said it didn't publicize the coin deal because it deemed it a normal business transaction, and 'did not want to gain any PR value from the tragedy.'
Shortly after the World Trade Center attacks, Bank of Nova Scotia said it would supply 3,800 ounces of silver it owned recovered from its vault at Ground Zero to make 427 'Angels of Courage' for the families of New York fire, police and emergency workers killed in the attacks. Additional angels were presented to dignitaries.
The bank spokeswoman declined to identify the wholesaler that bought the 'Sept. 11' coins from the bank but said it had been a client for 20 years and that the number of World Trade Center coins the bank sold was small.
'We do not disclose details of transactions for client confidentiality and security reasons,' the spokeswoman said.
People in the coin industry said Lee S. Minshull of Lee Minshull Rare Coins Inc. in Palos Verdes, Calif., was behind the deal. Mr. Minshull requested that questions be e-mailed to him. He didn't re
Mr. Renstrom, the Preferred Customer salesman, said the coins were 'pedigreed'-or inspected and graded-and packaged by Professional Coin Grading Service, a major grading service that is a unit of Collectors Universe Inc. of Santa Ana, Calif. PCGS encased the graded coins in the '9-11-01 WTC Ground Zero Recovery' capsules.
Mike Sherman, vice president of PCGS, said, 'A submitter brought the deal and requested the pedigree.' Mr. Sherman provided a copy of a letter dated Feb. 6, 2002, which accompanied a shipment of 2,640 U.S. one-ounce silver 'eagle' coins, showing that the coins were transported by an operator of armored trucks from Ground Zero between Oct. 30 and Nov. 3, 2001, and were part of the inventory recovered from ScotiaMocatta's vault. Mr. Sherman said the firm possessed about 30 similar letters.
Mr. Sherman said about 100,000 coins were submitted and that the deal was done at a discount because of its volume.
Mr. Sherman said he didn't have any qualms about PCGS handling the deal because the coins would be offered as collectors' items and not as investments. PCGS doesn't sell coins.
'It's what we do,' Mr. Sherman said. 'What's the alternative? Bury them in [the] ground or destroy them?'" (Alejandro J. Martinez, Wall Street Journal, August 6, 2003)
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Comments? Questions? Write me at george@loper.org.
Let's clarify this, Raymac, you have absolutely no proof either way to back up your post. What is your motivation with this post? To protect people from what? Your perceived possibility that someone may have been defrauded because the possibility existed? Your little vapid mind wandered a tad from centerline and concocted this imagined provenance issue. Pehaps you are Jade Coin reincarnate? You think no one has ever questioned the provenance of these coins on this board? Ever? Your motivation is in question.
Why was Jadecoin banned? Refresh my memory.
When it comes to provenance just say NO.
When it comes to death slabs [aka gimmick slabs] just say Heck No!
I"m seeking out this information because that, so far all information I have been able to find is either from third hand sources or from people that have a financial interest in the coins.
Given that PCGS has endorsed the coins, it was my thought that they would be the best to contact for specific information. I fail to see how this can be a problem unless transperancy of numbers of coins endorsed is something that is being avoided or is in the process of having the infomation gathered.
If the infomation is not ready to be released a simple e-mail saying "I'm sorry we don't have the infomation you are requesting at the moment" is not excesive from my point of view. No answer at all at the very least is bad business in my opinion.
My intent was to question the process in order to educate myself and to learn how to avoid forged items, as these items are showing up in the secondary market frequently and one has now way at the moment, that I can find to trace these item's. I fail to see how an answer to this question would present anyone with a problem?
I lurked on this forum for about a year before I joined.
BST successful dealings with:MsMorrisine, goldman86
<< <i>They have really taken some heat for this issue from many numismatists >>
Name the many.
Everytime I've sent PCGS customer service a query, which has been, and will continue to be, many times; a response usually follows immediately or within a 1-1/2 day time frame. Is "Something fishey goin' on here?" In all probability....YES...
<< <i>Thats strange, I went over your post again and all I seem to be reading are generalizations about why they may have not responded and a personal attack nothing at all to do with content.
Let's clarify this, Raymac, you have absolutely no proof either way to back up your post. What is your motivation with this post? To protect people from what? Your perceived possibility that someone may have been defrauded because the possibility existed? Your little vapid mind wandered a tad from centerline and concocted this imagined provenance issue. Pehaps you are Jade Coin reincarnate? You think no one has ever questioned the provenance of these coins on this board? Ever? Your motivation is in question. >>
I thought since I replied about what my motives are it would be fair to ask what yours are? since you feel so strongly about this and since you have done your fair share of speculation about me I think it's fair that I do a little bit about you, could it be that you have a finacial interest in these coins?
Now I want to also show how there is some confusion in the secondary market. I'm going to provide links to some current E-bay auctions where you have a bunch of eagles listed, graded or marketed by PCGS in different ways and one auction that adds even more problem's to the issue.
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2202061005&category=3361
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2202647414&category=39488
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2201510415&category=39488
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2201425673
(This link above takes you to an item where you can see the serial number, when you do a look up of the PCGS number 71234926 on this item you get the grade but no mention of WTC recovery)
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=2202434054&category=39488
( This link above is to an item that has very debatable merits but I'm showing it to show that there is room for problem's and confusion)
So lets see, we have Eagles listed in a bunch of different ways, some are GEM, some are MS, some appear to be a limited edition. So with out knowing how many are on the market and how many of each type of label, I think some people may see how it becomes hard to know what is going on with these items and silence just adds to the problem.
Thats all I have to say about this, it's a dead issue unless anyone can provide any information thats useful in a mature matter, without name calling.
My coins were subject to that temperture for 7 10 days. I have the documentation and aprasial report from JP chase. Those coins you see avertised were on the WTC poperty(22 arces) they just were not that near to "GROUND ZERO" I am still trying to image my coins to post to this board.
Paul
<< <i>could it be that you have a finacial interest in these coins? >>
I own none of the WTC Coins and have no FINANCIAL interest in them. They remind me of the sort of thing The Home Shopping Network and QVC would push. I have never purchased one nor have I sold any. There are not my cup of tea though I wouldn't mind having one in the collection.
<< <i>I thought since I replied about what my motives are it would be fair to ask what yours are? >>
I dislike it when a person adds no relevant facts to prove their perceived wrong, speculates wildly, and cannot debate to save their life.
You suggested:
<< <i>"I would like to ask if anyone can provide any documentation on these coins and if there is none, I would like to suggest that those who may have bought these coins consider going to the proper authoritys as you may be a victim of fraud." >>
I can just see it now...
Mr. Speculation:"hello?"
Smith:"F.B.I., Field Agent Smith"
Mr. Speculation:"I think there may be a possibility that my commemorative coins may not be from the WTC disaster recovery even though the holders have "WTC Recovery" on the labels""I may have been defrauded"
Smith:"And what would lead you to believe you have been the victim of a fraud?"
Mr. Speculation:"PCGS never returned my letter within two weeks, requesting proof of provenance"
Smith:"click"
BTW ~ "authoritys" is spelled: authorities
<< <i>Thats all I have to say about this, it's a dead issue unless anyone can provide any information thats useful in a mature matter, without name calling. >>
I guess you didn't bother to read the additions to the post by Airplanenut or trozau? Facts not worth addressing? Perhaps you require signed statements from the armored car driver and crew?
" Funny, your tirade gave me a thought, perhaps you have psychiatric problems and/or you're one of the numismatwits trolling around here under a "secret" 2nd or 3rd identity. Get a life and get spellcheck."
Hmm, I look at first sentence above. Then I look at some of your past posts it looks a bit hypocritical to me.
Adding the links is a typical Johnny Cochranesque technique which shows little and proves nada...
I'm making the attempt and I don't see you posting anything to back up your claims just colourful insults. Here's a copy of the E-mail with my personal information removed to protect against those with "psychiatric problems"
Date: Wed, 29 Oct 2003 09:50:22 -0800 (PST)
From:
Subject: World Trade Center Eagles
To: info@pcgs.com
To whom it may concern
I'm writing in regards to the grading of the World Trade Center coins. I was wondering if you could provide me with any information you have, as to how these coins were graded and confirmed by your company (PCGS) and Collectors Universe to have come from the World Trade Center.
I'm requesting this information to see if there is a way as a buyer, that the coin can be traced by paper work to have come from The World Trade Center and how your company certifies this. Any Information you have would be greatly appreciated, Thank you for your time.
With best regards:
"BTW ~ "authoritys" is spelled: authorities"
"Now don't get me wrong, you're special, just like everyone else, and deserve to be the number 1 customer despite never having spent a dollar, dime, penny, nickel, quarter, trime, or any other denomination with PCGS."
BTW- "Trine" is spelled as Dime, looks like you could use spellcheck as well since you want to play the spelling game, instead of addressing the topic and again we are speculating wildly. As you must be able to read minds because you have no way of knowing if I'm a customer or not.
I guess you didn't bother to read the additions to the post by Airplanenut or trozau?
I thought their posts were adressed by The Wall Street Journal Post.
I apologize for the fact that your initial inquiry was not answered, but I do not know to whom it was originally directed.
As I told the Wall Street Journal, Collectors Universe and PCGS does not simply add a pedigree upon request. We have a high standard of proof before a pedigree is assigned. In the case of the WTC coins, all shipments came directly from Brinks, accompanied by a letter which said the following:
To Whom It May Concern,
Please use this letter as our certification that the following sealed boxes of silver one ounce Eagle coins were transported by Brink's Incorporated from Ground Zero, 4 World Trade Center, between the dates of October 30th and November 3rd, 2001. These coins were part of the inventory recovered after the World Trade Center disaster of September 11, 2001.
Material: 5,000 U.S. one-ounce silver Eagle coins in ten (10) boxes
I.D. Number: WTC24-WTC033
Of course, the letters varied slightly depending on the content. We have over 30 such letters on file.
I hope this answers your question.
Respectfully,
Mike Sherman
Director of Numismatics
PCGS
<< <i>BTW- "Trine" is spelled as Dime, looks like you could use spellcheck as well since you want to play the spelling game, instead of addressing the topic and again we are speculating wildly. >>
If you're going to correct me, make sure you are in fact correct. From my original post: "Now don't get me wrong, you're special, just like everyone else, and deserve to be the number 1 customer despite never having spent a dollar, dime, penny, nickel, quarter, trime, or any other denomination with PCGS." That is an M in "trime", it follows L in the alphabet, not to be confused with the letter N.