Question about Sporting News M101-4 or 5?

mrc32

I asked this question on the Network 54 board and got a perplexing response. Net 54

I wonder if anyone on this board can help with my question:

I have just recently picked up my first card from the Sporting News series M101. The card has a blank back.

Can someone help me with identifing which year it came from? I have seen others that have advertisments on the back sides. This one is blank.

How can I identify if it came from the 1915 or 1616 set.

The numbers on both sets are the same I think....

Any idea how PSA tells the difference???

Griffins

curmudgeon

Mrc32

I see we follow the same threads! Thanks for posting your question here. I would disagree somewhat with Griffins, in that I do not believe there is any debate--the 30 cards are what they are--identical in both m101-5 and m101-4, at least until someone shows evidence to the contrary. Lipset's book does not cover either issue, so no help there. Lemke's doesn't clarify the issue either, although I have not seen the latest version. Please tell me that they finally got around to showing m101-5 as being issued in 1916-not 1915.

I hope someone on this board can help provide info, but I doubt much exists. Given that both sets contain nearly all of the same poses, lettering and team designations, I doubt there are any distinguishing features of the 30 players found with the same number in each set. If anyone has an example of a non-blank backed, non-Sporting News back and non Famous & Barr back card depicting one of the 30, please post it. I try to track these things, at least E-bay sales, and have had little luck.
regards................Todd

Griffins

Todd- your right, I went back and the debate was Lemke writing in the book that the M101-5's were issued in '15, and others strongly saying they were issued in '16.

mrc32

Thanks guys.

I checked Lipsett's book last week and I saw no reference to these sets.

Here is my most recent ebay purchase that caused the confusion Ebay link

Todd, thanks for the info. Do you know if the blank backs are more rare than the others or are they double printed. It would seem if they are the same in both 1915 and 1916 then they would be double printed.

I'm confused

I wonder what PSA would label this card if I were to send it in for grading. 1915 or 1916. How does PSA make the judgement?

bocaratondefense

Here is some more interesting information:

1916 or 1917 M101-4

There is debate as to whether the M101-5 set is from 1915 or 1916 and whether the M101-4 set is from 1916 or 1917. As you can see from the photo in the linked auction, Beckett considers the M101-5 a 1916 set and the M101-4 a 1917 set.

This is of course different than the SCD Standard Book which has the M101-5 as a 1915 set and the M101-4 as a 1916 set. I have no idea which is correct.

Hope this clears up any confusion that you might have.

curmudgeon

The m101-5 is from 1916. The easiest way to tell this is from the inclusion of several players who are designated with teams they did not play for in 1915, especially ex-Federal Leaguers . Example: HOFer Edd Roush is listed as a New York Giant--he did not play for that team until 1916. Curiously, he was traded to Cincinnati on July 20, 1916, so I would be interested in seeing whether his m101-4 card picked up the new team--if anyone has this card, please post.

The m101-4 also is from 1916. I have seen the Sporting News ads for the set throughout the 1916 season. Also, the SCD of a couple of years ago lists, with a very small picture, an issue called Bucyrus (sp?), a beer brand from the midwest or east. This set was issued as one big sheet of all 200 players, with a title across the top stating "1916 <I forget what description followed>", The sheet was blank backed, and was definitely m101-4--even with the small pic, you can see the Cobb, who appears only in the one set.

IMHO, there are fewer blank backs- as a percentage of the entire poulation- in m101-4 than m101-5. I also believe that you will see as many blank back m101-5s as you do Sporting News backs from that set. I have my own theories on some of the mysteries of the set, but want to research it further before I open my yap.

Todd

mrc32

Todd-
Are you an active collector of the set?

How tough are they to come by?

Any idea how they were issued?

Michael

Edit to add: Just to get this straight, could you list the backs that you know exsist for both sets?

curmudgeon

They were issued in a variety of ways:

Newspapers/periodicals: Altoona Tribune (M101-4); Sporting News (M101-4); Sporting News (M101-5); Successful Farming (M101-5)

Clothiers/Department Stores: Block and Kuhl Co. (M101-5);Burgess-Nash Clothiers (M101-4); Everybody's (M101-4); Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-4); Famous and Barr Clothiers (M101-5);Gimbels (M101-4);Gimbels (M101-5);Globe Clothing (M101-4);Green-Joyce Clothiers (M101-4); Herpolsheimer Co. (M101-4);Ware's (M101-4)

Breweries: Bucyrus (M101-4); Indianapolis Brewing Co (M101-4)

Bread/bakery:Holmes to Homes (M101-5); Morehouse Baking Co. (M101-4);Standard Biscuit (M101-5); Weil Baking Co. (M101-4)

and Mall Theatre (M101-4)

Many of these have their own ACC designation, rather than m101-*, (eg. Standard Biscuit is actually D350-2) but I think you get the idea. Somewhere on the Net54 board, there was a thread on degree of difficulty, but the Sporting News and blank-backed are the most common. I've never seen a Bucyrus sheet, and Holmes to Home and Mall Theatre are the toughest. Gimbels can be found with different type sets.

Hope this helps. Todd

bocaratondefense

I have collected these cards for the past few years and found that the most common are blank, Sporting News, Famous & Barr, followed by Weil, Gimbels, Standard Biscuit and the Globe. The other backs are much more difficult.

mrc32

curmudgeon / bocaratondefense-
Let me get this straight:
There were 2 sets- 1915 M101-5 and 1916 M101-4. They were produced by one company (who- Sporting news?), and inserted into different products (Clothes, beer, bakery etc). When they were inserted into a specific companies products, then the companies could put thier advertisements on the backs of the cards.

The 2 sets have 200 cards each. The numbers are different on the cards except for 30 cards which have the same number for both 1915 and 1916.

So for those 30 cards and more specifically the Good card I have if it has a blank back and has the same number in both sets (which the Good does) then there is no real way to tell which set it belongs too?

I found the network 54 thread which I have printed out and it is most helpful.

Question:
Some cards had blank backs. Where were those cards inserted? Idea?
Do you have yours graded by PSA or SGC and how are those companies on IDing the correct set?
Also was there an issue of VCBC or any article ever printed about these sets and its hidden details?

Thanks for the discussion.

bocaratondefense

Tim N. from the vintage card forum knows more about these cards than almost anyone I know. Tim was taking a survey from collectors as to backs, population, variations, etc and he was going to write an article on the subject for VCBC. I don't think he ever completed the article.

I am not too familiar with the methods of distribution other than what Curmudgeon stated above. I have noted, however, that there are disproportionate numbers of high grade clean examples of blank back and SN back. If you look at the population reports, you will note that there is a good percentage of these cards graded 7s and 8s. These high grade examples are almost all blank back versions.

Sets of these cards have been auctioned in the past. In particular, I remember a few years ago when Mastro auctioned off artwork and memorabilia from the Sporting News and they had an entire set of high grade examples. Those were blank back. I also remember when Teletrade had columns of M101s graded PSA 7 and PSA 8. Those were all blank back. I have yet to see large groups of high grade M101s other than groups of blank backs. This leads me to believe that the blank back and SN back cards may have been distributed differently but that is only my unproven and unresearched theory.

curmudgeon

The m101-4 Sporting News cards were available through the company in series of 20. I do not know how the others were distributed, although it maight have made sense that stores gave out one or two with each purchase, as opposed to selling or giving away the entire set or any series of 20. It is also quite possible that whoever had control or ownership of the printed pictures (presumably TSN at some point) sold them in blank sheets to other purveyors of various goods, who simply chose not to include advertising on the back.
Of course, it also makes more sense that the most commonly found backs are those that are found on both m101-5 and m101-4, rather than just one set-- thus more blank backs, TSN and F&B.