Why do sellers end auctions early?
LateBloomer
Posts: 98
Why do sellers end auctions early? Does anyone else find this as concerning as I do... or perhaps even deceptive?
1961 Topps Tony Kubek PSA 8
1961 Topps Jim Brown PSA 9
There were a couple of eBay auctions I was interested in recently and the seller suddenly ended the auction early. In the case of the Kubek card, I don't recall if there were any bids at the time it ended or not. The Jim Brown card had some bids and was up over $200 with 5 days to go I believe when it was ended.
Now I know there are valid circumstances where sellers have listed a card by mistake and obviously that should be the only reason for the auction to be cancelled. But even then shouldn't eBay track this as a negative somehow against the seller?
If a bidder bids on a card by mistake (?) he becomes a non-paying bidder and winds up with negative feedback. ("Gee... I forgot, I already have about a dozen PSA 9 Jim Brown cards... do I really need another? Why did I bid on this one? I'm just not going to pay!")
Do sellers get private, "under-the-table" offers on these cards from buyers and pull the card from eBay to avoid the fees? Do they decide to sell to a friend over the general bidding public? Do they just change their mind about parting with a certain card?
I'm interested in what everyone thinks about this practice? Personally it makes me feel like I want to avoid sellers that end auctions early.
1961 Topps Tony Kubek PSA 8
1961 Topps Jim Brown PSA 9
There were a couple of eBay auctions I was interested in recently and the seller suddenly ended the auction early. In the case of the Kubek card, I don't recall if there were any bids at the time it ended or not. The Jim Brown card had some bids and was up over $200 with 5 days to go I believe when it was ended.
Now I know there are valid circumstances where sellers have listed a card by mistake and obviously that should be the only reason for the auction to be cancelled. But even then shouldn't eBay track this as a negative somehow against the seller?
If a bidder bids on a card by mistake (?) he becomes a non-paying bidder and winds up with negative feedback. ("Gee... I forgot, I already have about a dozen PSA 9 Jim Brown cards... do I really need another? Why did I bid on this one? I'm just not going to pay!")
Do sellers get private, "under-the-table" offers on these cards from buyers and pull the card from eBay to avoid the fees? Do they decide to sell to a friend over the general bidding public? Do they just change their mind about parting with a certain card?
I'm interested in what everyone thinks about this practice? Personally it makes me feel like I want to avoid sellers that end auctions early.
0
Comments
for many reasons, and legally they have a right to do so. If the auction
is terminated a couple days before it's supposed to end, then the seller
most likely sold to a private offer. Technically this is against eBay's
rules, but they don't really police it. If the auction is ended only a
few minutes before it's supposed to end, the seller is getting nervous
about not getting back "his original investment". He's either unwilling
to place a reserve, or he doesn't realize that most auctions get the
highest bidding activity in the last few seconds. Either way, I agree
that we, as collectors, should try to stay away from sellers that have a
habit of ending auctions early (as well as wasting our time).
There was a thread a couple months ago about a dealer ending his auctions
early due to lack of bidding activity. The dealer, after giving some
pretty weak (but honest) excuses as to why he ended the auctions, was met
with quite a bit of criticism. It was obvious that buyers don't really
appreciate this practice. Sellers (especially the smart ones) soon
realize that it's better in the long run to just let your auctions run
through to the end.
It has been suggested many times before that eBay should have a place
where buyers can see if a seller ends auctions early, much like buyers
have a listing for their bid retractions. It's too bad that eBay has
done nothing about this.
<< <i>If a bidder bids on a card by mistake (?) he becomes a non-paying bidder and winds up with negative feedback. ("Gee... I forgot, I already have about a dozen PSA 9 Jim Brown cards... do I really need another? Why did I bid on this one? I'm just not going to pay!") >>
Well, this isn't quite a fair comparison - a better one would be a bidder who bids on an item and then retracts his bid. Which is tracked by ebay.
I'd think the following are reasons auctions are ended early:
1) Item description was flawed, or accidently listed - this is the only time I'll end an item early, if I've screwed up and used the wrong picture, wrong description, or accidently relisted an item I'd already sold. Generally, it's on lower value items, and considering I'm basically cancelling the auction to avoid a bigger headache down the road, not much else can be done.
2) Not happy w/high bid. I see a number of sellers who do this - especially when they wait until 5-10 min before the end of the auction and nix it if they don't like the bid. This is actually against ebay rules, and you can probably get them warned/booted if they do it a lot.
3) Offer off ebay. Not much you can do about this either, though I won't end an auction early, even if it's a "rediculous" offer because I don't want to lose bidders just to make a potential extra few dollars. And, VERY RARELY is the amount being offered to buy it off ebay in excess of what it goes for.
I occasionally offer seller a very high price to end an auction. It is usually the top bid I would put in. From my standpoint, I get the card, but realize that have gotten it cheaper if I had let the auction ride. But I don't have to worry about being outbid. From the sellers standpoint, he gets a price probably higher than he was expecting, and in order to get a higher price, it would require 2 more bidders to top my offer. Only 1 more bidder would just raise the price 1 increment, or a couple of dollars, usually.
I would bet that the 61 Kubek card had a $300 offer. (and no, it wasn't me. I already have that card)
On occasion, there certainly could be a legitimate reason to end one early, but in most cases, I am betting they got a good off-line offer which, of course, is not the way it should be. If I see a seller do this, I make a note of it and never bid in his auctions again.
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
set registry id Don Johnson Collection
ebay id truecollector14
The Kubek closed at $150 (and it was not me as I was at Shriner's show. I bought mine from Nick at $300 recently). It was a very close friend.
The person who bought the Kubek is a very good customer of this seller and he wanted the Yankee card for his collection. He made him the offer, the seller came back with a counter offer, and the auction was closed.
I have offered sellers a price to close auctions many times. I usually only ask sellers that I have a customer relationship with. In fact, sometimes when they decline, the card sells for less than I offered.
So it can work both ways.
as a seller, i often get offers to end auctions early. the most recent example is multiple buyers who begged me to end an auction for a chris bosh auto/jersey /100 early for $25. i declined and the card went for $97. another example is multiple buyers who begged me to end a carmelo redemption early for $25. i declined and the card ended at $50 something. the main reason i declined is that i've been the bidder and had too many auctions ended early simply b/c someone made a "side deal" w/the buyer. also, if someone truly wants my item they can do what i do when i bid- i.e., bid and hope they win. i may lose some potential buyers (1 bidder told me he will NOT bid on my auctions b/c i will NOT end them early), but my honesty and integrity remain intact. that is worth far more to me than any extra $ i can make by ending an auction early. not to mention if you end it early and the seller doesn't pay u have no recourse.
Occasionally, you make the offer (higher than you'd really like to pay) in order to guarantee that you get a card that may be frustrating the hell out of you. More times than not - you don't even ask or the seller declines - but occasionally, desperation gets the best of you....
About 18 months ago a very tough (at the time) Topps Hall of Famer came up on eBay in PSA 9. I had a low bid on it - but I told the buyer that I was planning on putting down a several hundred dollar bid before the close. Well... I got an email back apologizing to me and telling me that he owed me one because someone had offered $700 for that card to close the auction.... Since my top bid might have been $225 - I just laughed and told him that he'd be a fool if he didn't take it - and he did.
I didn't feel bad at all... and I actually felt happy for the dealer. Its not often that you get that kind of money thrown at a card with an SMR of $75. Plus, I got mine about 8 months later for $240.
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
dgf
<< <i>Rainman says: also, if someone truly wants my item they can do what i do when i bid- i.e., bid and hope they win. i may lose some potential buyers but my honesty and integrity remain intact. that is worth far more to me than any extra $ i can make by ending an auction early. not to mention if you end it early and the seller doesn't pay u have no recourse. >>
I couldn't agree more!!! Good for you!
<< <i>downgoesfrazier says: Once I get an opening bid I generally won't end an auction early. However, as long as nobody has bid and someone offers me a price I'd be willing to take...SOLD! There is nothing wrong with that. >>
Nothing wrong other than it violates the eBay policy that you agreed to follow. Not that I have any love for eBay or always agree with them... but I guess there are always people who bend the rules in sports, in business, and in life. I have to accept that... but I'm also free to add you to my list of sellers I won't bid on
I don't know I've had it go both ways. I've only ended one auction myself and it was for pretty fair money and knowing the pops just jumped from 1 to 2 so I guess I won. Hey who cares about ebay they are just collecting cash.
Problem I have as a seller is sniping I cant stand it as a seller. You start a card out at a fair price noone bids. You start it out at a buck and noone bids till the last 5 seconds. That not an auction its a massacre I've seen alot of nice cards go bye bye for nothing. Then when folks see the people that have no idea what snipeware is bid they are accused of being schillers. I wish it could go back to the old fashion way setting your watch to when an auction came down and pushing up your shirt cuffs with adrenaline rushing wahoo those were the days. Thats a true auction, emotions and all.
Now what are my bidding practices I snipe
Gator
I am not sure how ending an auction early to sell to someone for an agreed upon price reflects a lack of integrity. I do understand why others bidders may not like it because they get left out.
Is it any different than going to a show, and seeing a card you want, but the price is too high. Then the seller offers it for less to someone and you get upset because you would have paid the lower price, but you never asked.
Rainman: if someone had offered you $250 for your cards instead of $25, would you have taken it?
Gator: You have to realize that ebay sales are not auctions in the normal sense. They could make it that way by just extending auctions until no one has bid for 5 or 10 minutes.
I understand ebay is a crapshoot to say the least. Most of my deals are offline. I just sold 30 psa 8's in 65 fb for very reasonable offers I did quite well, watching 65 fb for a year its just all about timing well the last two weeks have been the time. Prices well exceeded what I sold for wishing I had them back some 8 with no ryme or reason going in the 90-150 range.
All that said with my luck I'd put them up and get 50 a piece so you try to split the difference.
I dunno I just missed the days of manual bidding. When I was into sports illustrateds (newstand copies) I had a riot. 3 guys going at it heavy. We'd even write each other after the sale or if we hit a bin rub it in. The group of us was reselling them and keeping for our collections. Just a rush I guess. Now SET IT AND FORGET IT.
Gator
PS Some of the craziest bidding I've ever seen has been in your year 61 topps.
eBay should add a line in the feedback rating for number of auctions closed early, just like they track bid retractions. Sure sellers can make an occasional mistake, just like bidders do. But dealers who make a habit of closing auctions early should have to wear that statistic next to their feedback rating. I think it would discourage abuse while protecting eBay's final value fees.
Repeat business from a major customer has got to be more important from trying to maximize price on one particular item.
I think a dealer just has to ask himself is it more important to keep a long-term client that I have done a lot of business with or try to maximize my short term revenue and risk alienating a new customer.
I can tell you what most dealers would do.
Jim
Good point like I said lots of variables.
Gator
I guess my point is that at is not a slam dunk not to end an auction early.
Taking myself out of it if some major dealer--say Andy Madec was auctioning a prewar card in psa 8 that Don Louchios needed for his set. Furthermore lets say that Don had done six figures of business with him in the past 2-3 years. Don asks Andy to pull the card and
he will pay him a good price. Do you really think Andy should say no?
I am sure that Andy would think if I say no I jeopardize this major business relationship. I think its an easy choice for Andy to make unless he has another major customer bidding as well. If the bidder is someone he has not done much bus with this has to be an easy decision.
Jim
Jim
Seriously, is there any other reason, besides not wanting to pay a competitive price, or out of fear that someone else will get the seller to end the auction early? I just had one item sell for $5100 - had a number of people ask to end it early, most in the $3000-4000 range. why would I reward someone for NOT bidding??
I have never used a sniping service.
The reason why you would reward someone is because of past business dealings or the potential for future business dealings.
Jim
Now, what I don't respect.....
To downgoesfrazier.....
Your obvious approach to someone with a different opinion than yourself is to be disrespectful. One can offer a different point of view without trying to insult the other person. I don't think that is appropriate on this forum and it certainly isn't a positive exchange of viewpoints.
Collect primarily 1959-1963 Topps Baseball
set registry id Don Johnson Collection
ebay id truecollector14
You make some very good points.
However, it has been my experience that often some major dealer friends of mine do not check or that they do not necessarily know which of my sets I may be prioritizing at any given time. Thus, most do not seem to mind when I ask them to take something down.
I respect your point of view but I do believe that it is in most dealers or at least most larger dealers long-term self interest to be flexible and consider who is asking for the card to be taken off and what the future business potential is for that client.
Jim
You stated that "Good sellers" wouldn't close an item early. That's a shot fired in my direction. I'm the kind of seller you want, responsive, honest, and deliver more than I promise. I have never...repeat...NEVER failed to close a transaction in a satisfactory way...on eBay or anywhere else. Don't paint with such a broad brush and think before you type and I wont launch a full-frontal at you. Complain to your Mom...leave frazier alone. Your killing "independant frazier". Frazier's gettin' upset!!!...
dgf
I don't like it when a seller closes an auction on a card I wanted, either. But I still buy from them. I may email them with what I was going to bid, just so they might know that they left some money on the table, but I don't think of them as dishonest or unscrupulous, and would continue to bid on their auctions.
Beefcake,
The legitimate reason that someone would offer is so that they can be guaranteed to get the card. In the 61 set, there is a bidder who will bid extremely high for a card he wants. Well above anyone else. So for instance, say I offer a seller $500 for a $50 SMR card. It is likely that the next highest bidder will bid only $250, but if high bidder shows up, he may bid $1000. If the seller accepts the offer, he gets $500. If he declines, he gets $255 if high bidder doesn't show up, and $505 if he does. Seems like it is in the best interests of the seller to sell it to me.
I agree that a lot of sellers won't accept an offer, because it upsets other bidders, and that is how the market works. It is probably a good business decision in the long run to not close auctions, but I certainly don't see it as unethical. I don't compare Ebay to major auctions as far as etiquette goes. On ebay, if you have a buyer who you know is good for the money, that beats selling to someone that you don't know if they will pay or not.
As far as Minnymac goes, closing the Kubek won't keep me from bidding on his items. However, his policy of accepting only money orders or cashiers checks is a deal killer......but that is the topic for another thread.
Also, in my opinion, the fact that a card doesn't have a bid early (thereby perhaps leading some sellers to feel free to accept outside of e-bay offers to end the auction) is pretty much irrelevant. Many many cards get lots of late action which you will never be able to avail yourself of once you end an auction early.
Setbuilders Sports Cards
Ebay: set-builders & set-builders2
Let's put the blame where it belongs here.
On the buyer who asks the seller to end the auction early.
He's the one putting the seller in the awkward position of,
having to either say no and piss off a good customer, or say yes and piss off potential customers.
Whether the buyer's motive is to save a buck, or just make sure he gets a card really wants,
he's the one asking a friend to break the rules, just to satisfy his own selfish needs.
"How about a little fire Scarecrow ?"
I gotta disagree on the eBay counter in the feedback ratings for auctions closed early and the reason that I say that is that I've already mucked up turbo lister once and had 127 auctions load "double listed!". So, I spend most of that evening ending auctions early. I've occasionally, also relisted a card that closed 3 weeks before, only to remember later, that I had sold it to someone who had won a bunch of cards at the time - and I should never have relisted it.
So, if there were no other reasons to close an auction early - then I would agree. But, I think that there are too many other valid reasons why auctions can come down to make that counter accurate and provide any real insight into the seller's motives.
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
I have to agree with John in that there is a seller on EBAY right now with a 1959 Topps card that I need for my set. I even spoke to him this weekend at Shriner's about my want list. So I wake up this morning and lo and behold, he lists the card last night for auction. I would probably have offered him more than he will get for the card online. You figure that out. For the life of me, I can't. And I am a very solid repeat customer. Will I bid on this card? Nope.
Buskwheat is correct about the one bidder for 1961 who just blows everyone away with 3 seconds left in an auction. So I (and I assume Rob does as well) contact the seller early and offer a generous price. Can he get more if he waits? Possibly. But that's if this bidder shows up.
Why do sellers end auctions early?
Because they aren't really auctions! This whole question has to be broken down into 2 premisis.
!. Why do collector sellers end early?
2. Why do dealers (people that sell cards for a living) end auctions early?
With 2 seperate arguments, a better understanding of the entire process will appear much more clear.
Minnymac the collector bought his cards at a market high point. He's selling at a lower point. He's trying to recoupe some of his $$$.
gfcom guy I don't know. Lets use setbuilders as an example. If I emailed Joe and asked him to pull a card and he said his policy is to let cards run the course. I would still bid on it. I wouldn't be pissed at him. If he pulled the card and sold it to me, only a few collectors in the same arena as myself would even be aware of it. They would email me and quote "you stinker". We all would still bid on Joe's cards in the future. I don't think Joe would loose any business by pulling a card. I respect either decision on a sellers end. We know the good dealers and will always buy from them...
I do think Hubcap was drilled by the guy selling the 59. That seller would go down a notch on my list.
As for ebay. They can't even see the trees from the forest, much less police their network.
mx'er
______________
1961 topps 100%
It is one sweet 68! It was early in the auction and the guy got a very fair deal.
I'll look to pick up some deals from that seller without your bids.
I spoke with eBay early on about this (couple of years back), and asked straight out if I have something for sale on eBay and also in a web store and someone wants to purchase the card though the store, do I have to have them bid?
They answered by refering me to the "End Aution Ealry" feature, highlighting the "No Longer for Sale" option for store owners that sell an item before an auction ends. Now maybe this isn't what this is meant for these days. But I ask, what's the difference?
Are we punishng people because they almost sold a card at auction?? Would it have been better if we had never seen that card out there in the first place? Beyond the fact that you are mad that you almost had a chance to bid on something, what's the big deal?
Just asking - I rarley end an auction early anyhow - but what really is the big deal. Personally, I'm glad I got a glimps of something I might otherwise have seen only in a pop report.
Jeremy
You can either:
a) play the game (offer seller a fair price)
or
b) beg the seller not to end it early cuz you want it bad.
I know how it goes though, Markirodenko suddenly closed a T205 Merkle in a 7 I was ready to pounce on. He rarely does this, but the offer must have been to good, he's only human.
A seller using a BIN is saying I will sell this card right now for $xxx, so what if someone offers a seller without a BIN an acceptable offer and they end the auction. Whether you do it the Ebay way or the other obviously less popular option of ending the auction early the result is EXACTLY the same...auction over...one winner.
To the comment that a bidder should not ask, this is silly. The seller is always in total control. Just say no. If the person is a long standing good client, they are not going to drop you like a hot potato just for declining the offer. If they do, they are being childish and good riddance I say!
Again, I recommend setting a BIN with a low reserve (to sustain the BIN for a little while) at the "dream" price for those who dont mind ending early without the auction going to fruition, but dont blame folks for doing the same thing a different way.
Rob
Well said. The problem with BIN is the price you have to pay for a reserve to keep the BIN in place.
Rob
I too get dissapointed when a seller ends an auction early of a card I want but you guys need to look at this from both sides. One of the main reasons that cards are bought and sold is because there is the possibility of profit in them. You guys should sit and think how hard it would be to build your sets if you took the profit out of cards. Sellers take losses on stuff so it is important sometimes to maximize your profit when you can, just to stay afloat.
I usually never end auctions early but I have a couple times in the past few years when the offer is ridiculously high. One example is I listed 2 1982 Topps PSA 10 Dave Stewart RC's. What do you think they would close at? I guessed about $40-$80 for the pair. A buyer offered me $500 to end them early. What would you have done? It's not just about making a couple of extra bucks. That's a good chunk of change to be throwing away. I have a family to feed too.
Again, just to re-state my initial point...a BIN is essentially no different then ending an auction early. So I don't have an issue with it.
Rob
Wabittwax...Thats a good chunk of change to through away. I have a family to feed too!
Great point. I think you said it all from the collector/seller stand point. I would think the average dealer would do this also.
The machine sellers like DSL or JTcards and many more have softwear incorporated into their systems. I think it would be harder for one of these dealers to end something early. The softwear would probably have to be manipulated to reflect the pull. That may be harder than letting the card end at the designated time. I really don't know about the programs big dealers run. Auctionhelper or some of the others. Some of you guys must run it. IS IT MORE COMPLICATED TO END SOMETHING EARLY?
LateBloomer...when your list of sellers you won't buy from is complete, PLMK the names. I have feeling it may be about 75% of the sellers in the area of your intrest.
mx'er
______________
1961 topps 100%
1. To make sure that he does not end the auction on me for some other person.
2. So I don't let my emotions go and bid too much.
3. To make sure that pc32 does not run me up. (shill bidder)
4. To guarantee that I will get the card.
As a seller on Ebay, which I don't do but if I did. Would I end an auction early?
1. If it exceeded my expectations
2. If it was a fellow PSA set registry member that needed it for his set.
3. If it was something that would benefit me now or in the long run. (assisting a good/longtime customer)
4. If there were no one else bidding on the item that I knew.
I see both sides of the coin on this one. I think everyone is right. Here is the problem that occurs for the seller that is not recognized because we never get to see the top bid. Davilillo snipes $5000 for the card because he really wants this card. All the other bottom feeders bid $108.99 for the card that they really want. The card sells to Davilillo for $109.49 . The seller did not end the auction because he did not want to hurt the fourteen bottom feeders feelings. The dealer lost $4800 because he is honorable and followed the rules, but he kept everyone happy. Had Davilillo and the dealer just agreed on the terms, both parties would have felt like they got a great deal.
Oh, and by the way. Most of these dealers out there will NOT call you once they get a card that you need that is on your want list. You are better off not discussing these things with them.....believe me.
you reflected many of the points we discussed last night.
I am sick of "dealers" telling me about what is fair when the real reason they won't sell something outright (for more than they probably expected to get in the first place) is the hope that 2 collectors will get stupid in their bidding and overpay. This is a "hobby" of "trading cards" and to me the whole concept of a "dealer" is simply a middle-man that now, with the entire hobby moving onto e-bay, serves no purpose, except to escalate prices (which is another topic altogether). There was a day when dealers would serve the purpose of finding hard to locate cards for collectors and i was happy to pay them for that service. Now it seems that when these guys get something they know I need (after looking at the registry or my old want lists), they put it on e-bay and e-mail me to remind me to bid early and often because they have a kid in college who needs a new kidney.
As one of the innovators of the "how's about a buy-it-now price ?" practice way back in the e-bay frontier days, I have a pretty strong opinion on this topic. I have made a lot of sellers very happy and secured some very difficult material doing this. I never try to low-ball when i do this and I only do it on cards that I am having trouble locating (ie: everything I collect) and have been on the hunt for. It is hard not to pursue them in earnest once the "arrive" on e-bay, and I hope the sellers out there understand this. Many times i will refer to my registered set or describe my reasons for wanting the card so badly.
They are selling, I am buying; who ever said e-bay or this hobby was "fair".
I say "the early bird gets the worm".
As for the guys that blow me off or don't respond...... don't worry, I'll still say hello as i walk past your table at the next show, and when they run after me when I'm leaving to ask what I DID buy. I usually tell them it wouldn't be fair to other collectors if I told them.
edited to add: I do not expect a seller to cancel someone else's bid to end an auction, and this is why i will often place initial bids and cover the bid with a snipe. Needless to say, I am a huge fan of the buy it now feature.
Seller lists a desirable card with a fairly serious BIN. A buyer who seller has a long relationship comes along and sees the card. Buyer contacts seller privately (maybe even by phone) and says he'll buy it at the BIN price if seller pulls the auction.
If seller trusts buyer to follow through, this situation provides a potentially significant cash advantage to the seller, because eBay doesn't get Final Value Fees (and on a high end card, we're talking hundreds of dollars in fees).
Yes, it's unethical if you care about eBay's point of view. It doesn't, however, harm other collectors.
As for why a buyer would want to do this, someone who is keeping a registry set dark (or competing for an award) might very well not want to tip off competitors as to what he has now picked up - or the buyer could just want to do the seller a favor.
Nick
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