Proof/MS 70's are they hurting grading service reputations?

291fifth · October 30, 2003 9:29PM

Anyone who uses eBay for moderns can't help but notice the explosion in MS/Proof 70 offerings of PCGS and, especially, NGC graded coins. How has this changed your view of these grading companies? In my case I am so turned off by the flood of NGC 70's that I have stopped bidding on any of their moderns, be they 70 or not. I'm not much happier about PCGS though the numbers are not yet a flood. If ANACS had greater market acceptability I'd probably shift all of my modern submissions to them, in spite of the fact that they have been brutal on my most recent submissions. What are your thoughts?

fivecents · October 30, 2003 9:42PM

The MS/PR70 grade did not exist at NGC and PCGS until 5 or 6 years ago. I don't have a problem with it, except when the grading services start holdering over graded MS69's in MS70 holders. NCG is by far the worst of the two that does this. I feel that PGCS over grades MS70's by accident and NGC over grades MS70's on purpose. That is just my oppinion.

DHeath · October 30, 2003 10:28PM

Interesting post. I'd like to preface my post by saying I'm not a collector of 70 graded coins, but I think it's a legitimate although meaningless grade to me. Since it is part of the grading scale, I think it should be used, although I see no difference in value between a coin that looks perfect to the unaided eye and one that looks perfect under a loupe. Having said that, I'd like to pose another question.

Do you believe it bad for the hobby to see these coins emerge? Are some condition rarities overvalued in the current market?

I collect moderns, and I'm aware there are some moderns that are fully deserving of the premiums they achieve, and some are currently UNDERVALUED. These coins are the EXCEPTION rather than the rule. We are watching the modern market mature, and I believe we are watching the market finally seperate true condition rarities from common material that previously lacked sufficient return to be submitted in enough volume to determine the population's relative quality. Collectors and dealers who traditionally chose not to involve themselves with moderns are finally becoming aware of these coins as well. Ask any dealer you know if they have any gem 72 Ikes.

Even though they don't collect or sell moderns, they'll know about that coin. Ask them about 71 Dcam JFK's. Even though they don't "do" moderns, to a man they'll all tell you that is a very tough coin. Look at your own series, and decide where in that series it makes sense to gamble long. Spend your energy there. There are many moderns that have legs and will emerge as real keepers, and unfortunately there are many more that represent an opportunity to overspend. Many modern collectors rejoined the hobby with the introduction of the State Quarter program. They have aggresively collected ANY condition rarity for several years. As their choices become more discriminate and the populations of more common coins are revealed, we'll see the real gems unearthed, and watch the common stones hit the discard pile. JMO

Senlathiel · October 30, 2003 10:51PM

Can it not be a increase of quality at the mint?

fivecents · October 30, 2003 11:23PM

<< Can it not be a increase of quality at the mint? >>

senlathiel....I would say no, because alot of the MS/PR 70 coins were minted before NCG and PCGS started grading coins MS/PR70. I know of a 1963 cent that was graded PR70 by PCGS.

relayer · October 30, 2003 11:25PM

For the 2002-W West Point proof...

NGC 69=1812 70 = 1342
PCGS 69=1352 70 = 49

IMHO, with modern proofs fresh from the Mint, NGC is probably closer to the truth.

tradedollarnut · October 30, 2003 11:32PM

I know of a 1963 cent that was graded PR70 by PCGS.

Which brings up an appropriate question: which would you rather do.....buy high and sell low or buy low and sell low?

CarlWohlforth · October 30, 2003 11:35PM

People have commented that 2003 coins are better in quality than years past. Both PCGS and NGC are giving out lots of 70s for this year.

I have owned 10 PCGS PR 70 DCAMs. Several of them had visible flaws and were downgraded. That kind of 70 hurts the reputation of the graders. ICG 70s are not worth much at all IMO. I haven't seen any NGC 70s closely enough to form an opinion about them. I plan on buying one for fun. If I see any flaw at all I wouldn't buy any more.

relayer · October 30, 2003 11:43PM

Carl - here is one not too overpriced

FrattLaw · October 30, 2003 11:47PM

<< I am so turned off by the flood of NGC 70's that I have stopped bidding on any of their moderns, >>

It all depends on what years you are discussing. If it's 1999-2003, then I would have to agree that there has been alot of PF and MS70s graded by NGC. However, I would think that many of the earlier years (pre-1999) that you are seeing 70s for sale are a matter of demand. NGC has just changed their Registry so that they are now awarding recognition for the top sets. If a NGC PF70 and a PCGS PR70 hold the same weight, and the NGC 70 is 1/5-1/2 the price of the PCGS coin, which do you see as being a better "investment." I imagine that this fact is causing some to liquidate some of their 70s. Recently I have purchased quite a few NGC PF70s for a fraction of the price of a PCGS PR70. I think the PCGS PR70's are overhyped and overpriced while NGC's are undervalued and have a real chance of increase. As for the belief that NGC hands out more 70s, if you check the NGC Pop reports compared to PCGS, there are actually some years where PCGS has certified more 70s then NGC. There are also years where NGC hasn't slabbed any PF70s.

Personally I feel the 70 is a "plastic" or "registry" grade for moderns. Meaning that the only real reason to purchase a 70 over a 69 is for the bump in the registry. There are many 69s that are nearly as perfect as the 70 and why pay the difference -- cause you want to be #1 in the Registry "game."

Michael

RKKay · October 31, 2003 1:57AM

I feel that PGCS over grades MS70's by accident and NGC over grades MS70's on purpose. That is just my oppinion.

Based upon what evidence?

fivecents · October 31, 2003 2:09AM

<< Based upon what evidence? >>

RKay...NGC has some really doggy looking MS/PR70's on the market. NGC's MS/PR70's don't sell for anything close to what PCGS 70's will bring. Do you agree with that? I don't think NCG is that incompotent of a grading service. It is my opinion that they purposely have a VERY fuzzy line between the grades of 69 and 70. After all that would bring in more submissons wouldn't it? Like I said before, this is just my opinion. I have no evidence at all.

LAWMAN · October 31, 2003 3:01AM

Remember in school, the teacher who said they would not give "A's"? If the grading curve in school goes from A - F, then, if you had such a teacher, you were comparatively getting ripped off because the kids in the class across the hall had a shot at an "A" and you didn't. Isn't it the same with coins? If the grading system really goes from 1 to 70 (not XF/AU/BU/GEM BU, etc.), then, don't SOME coins qualify for 70? The question, of course, is how many? If you look at prices realized on E-Bay for NCG vs. PCGS 70's, the PCGS ones are way, way above in fair market value (what a willing buyer pays a willing seller without a gun to his/her head). That's because PCGS has been very sparing as to how many 70's and NGC has been more like the girl we all knew in high school who couldn't keep her knees together.

topstuf · October 31, 2003 3:01AM

I wonder what a grader has to do to get stuck in the modern grading room.

Can anyone come up with a worse fate than looking at 500 proof silver eagles?

Or modern proofs. I think I would go Lee Harvey if I had to look at Kennedies all day long.

Or Roosies......."hey this one has a full John Sinnock on it............wheee"

ALL DAY LONG.........................

LAWMAN · October 31, 2003 3:04AM

I agree with Frattlaw, I have been buying NGC MS 70's and they come at very good prices.

IrishMike · October 31, 2003 3:23AM

In reality if you are going to discuss this topic you need to know the submission numbers. You can't use the number graded to fairly judge how they grade them. As someone has already pointed out in some years PCGS graded more PF 70's than NGC. A few years they stop grading coins as 70. If you were a bulk submission dealer where would send these coins for grading? ICG blew it by handing out 70's when clearly they didn't deserve it. The entire industry knows this. So now they go more and to NGC and you think NGC doesn't realize that ICG shot themselves in the foot by handing them out willy-nilly? If you believe they are then you must believe that they are pretty dumb.

There are many series and dates where PCGS has more coins graded higher, does this mean they are looser, of course not. Even David Hall stated that their should be more 70's coming out of his shop.

As far as your question, does it hurt grading companies, I don't think so, its part of the grading scale and if they feel it deserves it give it the grade. I think the price paid for PGCS has more to do with the registry demand here compared to NGC's then quality of the coin. Someone stated that they have seen NGC 70's not deserving the grade and I don't doubt this, but keep track of some of the coins on Teletrade that have PCGS 70 grades and you will see the same thing exists in their holder.

tradedollarnut · October 31, 2003 3:32AM

If everyone looked, acted and talked exactly the same, the world would be a boring place. If NGC and PCGS graded to exactly the same standards and never made mistakes, what the heck would we all have to talk about?

Yes, NGC 70's are graded to a slightly lesser standard than PCGS 70's. Yes, most of them would only make 69 at PCGS [of course, so would most PCGS 70's for that matter

]. The trick in numismatics is to align the price you pay with the quality you get. Those opportunities are in all holders and all grades.

IMO, giving out lots of 70's to modern coins will in the long run help collectors. Lots of 70's means lower prices now which means people will lose less money in the future when microscopic differences don't matter as much as eye appeal. The market has been headed that way for years now and I only see it continuing.

IrishMike · October 31, 2003 3:38AM

TDN good advice, but I can tell you from owning both PCGS and NGC proof 70 quarters that even with a loupe I can't tell the difference between the coins, neither has anyone else that has looked at them. I'd rather lose $65 on a coin then $465.

DHeath · October 31, 2003 4:11AM

Many new to the boards will be unaware that the collectors here asked Mr.Hall to intercede and begin using the 70 grade again after if virtually disappeared for a few years. I applaud the decision to put it back in play.

Edited to add - At the urging of the forum members, Mr.Hall said the following "I can tell you that because of everyone's feedback, the graders will be very conscious of the 69/70 line and try to give the 70 grade were merited."

Pistareen · October 31, 2003 4:19AM

Does it matter that many/most collectors of high grade modern material can't tell the difference between a 69 and 70 coin? Or a 68 and 69?

I'm not inpuning anyone's knowledge here, just recognizing a fact.

cladking · October 31, 2003 4:46AM

<< Does it matter that many/most collectors of high grade modern material can't tell the difference between a 69 and 70 coin? Or a 68 and 69?

I'm not inpuning anyone's knowledge here, just recognizing a fact. >>

I know so few modern collectors that I don't really know that this is true.

The modern collectors around here generally say they have a good idea
of the difference.

I'm personally still learning how the grading companies grade. Certainly
there is a wide enough spread for me to spot the diffrence even if I don't
always know where to draw the line.

FrattLaw · October 31, 2003 8:18AM

I have to agree with CladKing, IrishMike and, oh my God, TradeDollarNut (now there's a first). I think the difference between a 68 and 69 is noticeable. While the 69 to 70 line might be a bit finer and harder to locate. Either way, I would rather take a chance on with a cheaper 70 get all the same benefits as a PCGS 70 and much more upward potential. Buy the steak, not the sizzle!

As for Fivecents comment about NGC's doggy looking 70s, obviously he hasn't seen any one the PCGS PR70 DCAM Ikes that are out there. It is my understanding that quite a few would probably not even make a 69 if they were resubmitted today.

Michael

Russ · October 31, 2003 8:31AM

<< As for the belief that NGC hands out more 70s, if you check the NGC Pop reports compared to PCGS, there are actually some years where PCGS has certified more 70s then NGC. >>

Of course that statement conveniently ignores the fact that for quite a while NGC didn't even grade moderns at all. PCGS had several years head start. Compare the numbers since NGC finally did start grading them.

Russ, NCNE

Russ · October 31, 2003 8:33AM

<< NGC has some really doggy looking MS/PR70's on the market. >>

So does PCGS - plenty of them.

Russ, NCNE

fivecents · October 31, 2003 8:47AM

Frattlaw.....PCGS does have some MS/PR70 dogs out there and I have seen the doggy looking 1963 PR70DC. You are right, a high percentage of PCGS and NCG 70's would come back as 69's if cracked out and resubmitted. The 69 - 70 line is fuzzy anyway you look at it, but the difference in market price for NCG and PCGS MS/PR70's coins should tell you something. Ngc is not as tight on MS/PR70's as PCGS. imo

tradedollarnut · October 31, 2003 8:55AM

I have to agree with CladKing, IrishMike and, oh my God, TradeDollarNut (now there's a first).

It's ok, Michael - I almost posted that I agreed with your first post 100% but I didn't want to give the forum a coronary....

psxchelly · October 31, 2003 8:58AM

Not that I want to start an argument, but anytime someone brings up pr/ms70's in a thread, everyone bashes moderns. okay how about this topic....

Over graded pre-1964 coins "are they hurting grading service reputations?"

Yes! Any time a famous coin (1933 Gaudens, 9/11 ground zero coins, the lost liberty nickel) or collection surfaces to be put on the auction block, grading services are stepping on each others toes trying to get their name on the holder and over grade it just so they can say "hey look what we did"

My opinion is that the gimmicks, and the over grading of famous classic coins hurts a grading services rep more then a pr 70 modern. Its well known that the mint has been catering more and more to "collectors", so its only a natural occurrence that more pr/ms 70's will appear.

Bottom line... ANY over graded bunch of coins modern or otherwise, can hurt a grading service in my opinion.

michelle

michael · October 31, 2003 11:29AM

If everyone looked, acted and talked exactly the same, the world would be a boring place. If NGC and PCGS graded to exactly the same standards and never made mistakes, what the heck would we all have to talk about?

Yes, NGC 70's are graded to a slightly lesser standard than PCGS 70's. Yes, most of them would only make 69 at PCGS [of course, so would most PCGS 70's for that matter ]. The trick in numismatics is to align the price you pay with the quality you get. Those opportunities are in all holders and all grades.

IMO, giving out lots of 70's to modern coins will in the long run help collectors. Lots of 70's means lower prices now which means people will lose less money in the future when microscopic differences don't matter as much as eye appeal. The market has been headed that way for years now and I only see it continuing.

-------------------------
Wanted - superb chopmarked trade dollars. If you have a blazing unc, please email me!
***********************************************************************************

very well said tradedollarnut

michael

cladking · October 31, 2003 12:21PM

<< 

IMO, giving out lots of 70's to modern coins will in the long run help collectors. Lots of 70's means lower prices now which means people will lose less money in the future when microscopic differences don't matter as much as eye appeal. The market has been headed that way for years now and I only see it continuing.
>>

Come on. Do you really see many 70's with poor eye appeal. Have you ever seen a 70?

Most all the moderns on the market have nice original surfaces and for the main part the
types that have specimens grading 70 don't have a lot of variation in surfaces. It's tough
to say how your comments relate to classics but they are nearly meaningless to moderns
or current trends.

tradedollarnut · October 31, 2003 1:47PM

Who said anything about 70's having poor eye appeal? Well, some do - such as the infamous 1963 cent, but I'm certain they most all look great. But so do all the 69's and so do all the 68's. The difference is a lint mark or two or a tiny spot visible with a glass. You interpreted my post exactly bass ackwards.....

Bochiman · October 31, 2003 1:48PM

If the coin merits it, and I think there are probably quite a few moderns that due merit it due to definition, then it should be given out.
One company or another shouldn't be stingy and think that makes them so much better.

I have nothing against PCGS nor NGC, but I have not submitted to either yet (I do have 4 free PCGS submissions coming whenever I figure it all out (best way to do it, the right coins, etc) and I would hope that when I do submit, my coin gets what it deserves.

If I submit a 2003 proof $.50 piece and it deserves a PR70, then it should get it. Same with MS (which, I think are harder to get).

I have trouble understanding why people are so against it? Is it because you feel it will devalue your coins? If your coins are probably graded, then that should be it.
I like the analogy someone used about the teacher who gives out "A"s and the one who doesn't. Do people feel that they had the teacher who, today, doesn't give out "A"s but did a few years ago, so now they don't want that teacher to ever again give them again so that these people will feel smarter/

Come on people, if you don't collect moderns, don't bash it. If you do and you feel every single MS/PR 70 is overgraded, do you use the same standards as the grader? Or, do you use some super magnifier that they don't use?
The only PR70 coins I own are some given to me by an uncle... ICG PR70 even. I haven't tried to sell them, nor do I have a desire to sell them (4 of the 1999 state quarters (he accidentally sold the delaware) and the 2000 state quarters. I looked at them and didn't notice problems, but I also know the ICG rep....so, it doesn't matter if they are 68/69/70....they screwed themselves and people that have the coins.

Too many times I see people just bashing away.....the MS/PR70 arguments, the PCGS>NGC argument, the moderns vs pre-1964 (or whatever you want to cut off at) arguments.

The great thing about numismatics is that there are so many different areas to collect in (or, spread out so much over). Instead of bashing, why not just enjoy what you do have and what YOU enjoy collecting?

I never thought about collecting franklins before this board (had seen them a bit, but no interest), but rather than bash them, I tried to learn abit...and listening to mainly Lucy and Frankie, I bought a couple from frank and enjoy them.

I find MS/PR70 coins too much $$$ for my blood right now (I probably have a few in my proof/mint sets (at least, I like to think I do) but I am not opening them up to sell them because it is for my enjoyment and for my growing son's enjoyment...not to please anyone else....besides, that $15/coin or whatever that I save can buy me some more coins). I am not a slab hater though...I have a few dozen slabs and I actually prefer them for coins that are more than $20 or so.

So, in short, and to get off the soapbox, I love the discussions on this board (I read the ngc board as well, but it is nowhere near as active) and I value the diversity most everyone brings, but it seems the same people, over and over, bash on the same things. But, to keep on topic, I see nothing wrong with the 70 grade if it is deserving, and until someone works in the grading room (like Coinguy1) then everything should be taken with a grain of salt......I would LOVE to hear what Mr Felds has to say on this topic (though I don't know how long ago he was a grader).

Android · October 31, 2003 2:02PM

If you walked up to a dealer's table at a coin show, and he had several Kennedys in 2x2's marked as PR70DCAM, would you buy them after viewing them, confident in your grading abilities, for the same amount of money that a PCGS PR70DCAM sells for? And not send them to PCGS, but keep them raw in your collection?

Newmismatist · October 31, 2003 2:17PM

<< 

<< Based upon what evidence? >>

RKay...NGC has some really doggy looking MS/PR70's on the market. NGC's MS/PR70's don't sell for anything close to what PCGS 70's will bring. Do you agree with that? I don't think NCG is that incompotent of a grading service. It is my opinion that they purposely have a VERY fuzzy line between the grades of 69 and 70. After all that would bring in more submissons wouldn't it? Like I said before, this is just my opinion. I have no evidence at all. >>

Here's a little visual evidence of a "Gem" 1963 LHC PCGS Pr70DCam. Are the NGC "dogs" as "nice" as this PCGS "Gem"? ( or maybe a bit nicer?)

Linky to "Gem" PCGS Pr70DCam

zenny · October 31, 2003 3:32PM

thanks for the linky, i had never seen an image of that coin, it doesn't look quite perfect to me, but hey, i don't get paid 200k annually to sit in a dark room and enter numbers into a computer, um, i mean grade rare and valuable coins.

Anyway, looking at the sale price it dawns on me that someone paid nearly 4 million times face value for it.... and it doesn't even have cool peaclock (edited for bad language!!) toning or the name Eliasberg on the (admittedly) extremely valuable piece of plastic in which it resides.

Something that occurs to me about "conditional rarities" such as this are just how dependent they are on not being damaged in any way whatsoever if they are to retain their awesome value. As pcgs puts it, the difference between 70 and 69 is the difference between "as struck" (70) and "virtually as struck with miniscule imperfections" (69).

I would think it wouldn't be impossible for a coin, say, during the slabbing process to develop a so-called "miniscule imperfection" which would drastically affect the value of such coin.

The only ahem, cough cough, "ms70" coin i own resides in a PCI green label holder. It is a 1982 Washington commem. that will never be cracked out and crossed - it could be scratched in the process and imagine how precipitously the value of that superb gem would fall...

in the real world, of course, said coin might make it into a 66 holder at pcgs or ngc, 67 at icg and probably 65 at anacs.

Incidentally, the fact that this coin is seriously, no make that comically overgraded in no way improves or diminishes PCI's reputation in my eyes!

z

XpipedreamR · November 1, 2003 5:54AM

All I can say is, I consider myself lucky that I don't give a hoot about moderns!

baccaruda · November 1, 2003 7:09AM

How can one say that there shouldn't be "perfect" coins out there. I've got modern SAEs, proof sets etc. and I can't find any flaws on most. Nearly all are perfect cameos, perfect strikes, prefect everything. Why shouldn't these get "perfect" grades?

I think if a PF70 modern SAE went for, say $50, this wouldn't be an issue. The problem is that the market sees fit to pay hundreds if not thousands of dollars for a coin that looks strikingly similar to most ungraded coins of the same issue. Is it the grading company's fault for correctly grading a coin or the public's fault for building that coin into something it's not?

It seems the opinion of many is that the grading services shouldn't give as many 70's. Those buyers are then compelled to spend even more on the ones that are given 70's because of a low "pop" - compounding the problem. Wouldn't the answer be to call a perfect coin what it is, perfect?

I guess in short the answer isn't that grading services are assigning too many 70's. Not enough IMO.

Proof/MS 70's are they hurting grading service reputations?

Comments

Leave a Comment