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I was reminded why we collect graded cards
Fabfrank
Posts: 2,312
About 2 weeks ago I went to a local card show. It was Sunday afternoon and I figured I would check it out for some new wax to open during the late football games. The show had about 60 dealers with a good variety of material (new, vintage, mags, autographs, supplies, memoribilia, artwork, etc.). One dealer had quite a bit of older material (60's and 70's) as well as some 50's cards. All were baseball. I went over to his 71 binder which was marked as NM/MT and started searching. I asked the dealer if he had any graded cards. He said "No" with a smirk and a bit of attitude. Now is 71's were decent compared to what I've seen ungraded offered at shows, but all were offcenter and would probably grade 5-6, 7 at best. Basically the way dealers graded before PSA.
I looked through his cards for about 15 minutes and realized there was nothing I needed. I politely thanked him and began to leave. His parting comment was "Yeah, maybe you should just stick to graded cards". I asked him what he meant and he said "It's obvious you don't know your cards".
Now normally I just walk away from someone like this, but this ticked me off. I informed the dealer that I've been collecting steadily for the last 20 years, and casually for 10 years before that. That he's the one who obviously doesn't know cards, because the market has changed and people refuse to pay for overgraded crap. He countered argue that "People who buy graded cards overpay for the plastic holder". I tried explaining to him that grading has saved me money over the long haul by protecting me from buying overgraded, trimmed and counterfeit cards to no avail.
I finally ended the "discussion" by pointing out that for the last half hour, no one but me was at his table. No one but me looked at his material. The only potential customer he had (me), was going to take my business elsewhere. I stayed at the show for another hour, and although the crowd was thin, no one else even stopped at his table.
This isn't a knock against show dealers. Many I've known for a long time and they work very hard to make a buck. But there are still a few that don't realize that insulting potential customers and not offering graded inventory is not a good business practice.
I looked through his cards for about 15 minutes and realized there was nothing I needed. I politely thanked him and began to leave. His parting comment was "Yeah, maybe you should just stick to graded cards". I asked him what he meant and he said "It's obvious you don't know your cards".
Now normally I just walk away from someone like this, but this ticked me off. I informed the dealer that I've been collecting steadily for the last 20 years, and casually for 10 years before that. That he's the one who obviously doesn't know cards, because the market has changed and people refuse to pay for overgraded crap. He countered argue that "People who buy graded cards overpay for the plastic holder". I tried explaining to him that grading has saved me money over the long haul by protecting me from buying overgraded, trimmed and counterfeit cards to no avail.
I finally ended the "discussion" by pointing out that for the last half hour, no one but me was at his table. No one but me looked at his material. The only potential customer he had (me), was going to take my business elsewhere. I stayed at the show for another hour, and although the crowd was thin, no one else even stopped at his table.
This isn't a knock against show dealers. Many I've known for a long time and they work very hard to make a buck. But there are still a few that don't realize that insulting potential customers and not offering graded inventory is not a good business practice.
Baseball is my Pastime, Football is my Passion
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Most have the newer hot player thats graded and some have slabs from companies that no one has seen before,
and yes, only a few vintage cards are seen, but they are aware of the grading segment of the hobby.
But if you set up at shows and no one is buying your raw cards, and many ask for graded, what would you do?
You would implement graded cards to your inventory to survive. Or you can be like FABFRANK's dealer who will blame the economy, blame the customer, blame the show, but never take the responsibility to change...jay
Website: http://www.qualitycards.com
I've always been wary of buying older raw stuff off ebay, and every single one I've gotten with the intention of sending in has been overgraded by the seller. I may not always agree with the grade on the slab once I get it in my hands (both over and under), and graded cards come with their own particular set of problems, but it sure does ease the mind even as it lightens the wallet.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
I just reminded a very prominent board member today the reason I collect baseball cards at all is because of PSA and EBAY.
My Auctions
Sounds like he didn't have anything worth grading. Why spend the money to grade cards when you can pay $100 to sit around and eat Big Macs and sell slop to the hogs that pass by your table.
"What he called NM, I call VG-EX after getting adjusted to PSA's standards."
Back in the early 90's I built nice NM+ sets by buying in bulk, trading similar quality for similar quality (even 2-1, but mostly 3-2 commons). Sometimes I'd miss a tiny crease here or a back stain there, but basically ended up with NM+ sets. Like everyone else, I'd go by Beckett standards, which are subject to interpretation, but even with their blown-up scans of corners, I decided I didn't need MINT cards for double and triple book value. I was more than happy with NM+ with an occasional NM-MT card for Beckett price or less.
When the grading craze started, PSA (first out of the chute) generally went along with the established grading guidelines. If you don't believe me, check some of your old flips with the PSA logo on the back, or even better the dot matrix printer type flip.
As more grading companies entered the hobby, particularly Beckett, the standards suddenly changed. Beckett didn't even go by their own guidelines. They graded vintage cards as if they were produced yesterday, regardless of the blown-up scans in their own price guide. That, more than anything, spelled D-O-O-M for Beckett and vintage grading. They're now on their third vintage grading company (BGS, BVG, BCCG). Lost all credibility.
I've now got tons of 8's, many what I used to call MINT when in the raw state, bunches of 7 (NM+ to NM-MT) and a few 6's (that make darn nice NM raw cards, when cracked out of their coffin).
One reason graded cards go for so much more than raw cards is the graded stuff is undergraded. The card is, more often than not, a full grade better than what us old-timers used to call it.
With 6,000,000 PSA graded cards out there, 600,000 SGC and 6,000 BGS, some sliders do slip through. But by and large, grading companies have successfully redefined the condition criteria and we've bought it hook, line and sinker. Heaven help us when the raw stuff dries up and graders have to lower their standards to entice us to submit our sliders.
Think about it.
<< <i>Sounds like he didn't have anything worth grading. Why spend the money to grade cards when you can pay $100 to sit around and eat Big Macs and sell slop to the hogs that pass by your table. >>
Now that is funny.
John
I have been to enough shows to know when I like or dislike a dealer. Some are there because to them it is a business, some just to show off what they have, some who have completely forgotten why they ever started, and then you have the folks who will sit and talk to you about a player or the history of a card and genuinely love what they are doing. Give me the last kind any day. Anyway it is good to meet everyon here and I look forward to being a part of the community.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
I'll tell ya... There is nothing like going to a show and spending most of your time BS'ing with some of the goofballs that you meet right here on the registry forum or with some of the TRULY nice dealers. They realize that as a dealer, that they'll get more sales by being nice. And as collectors, by being reasonable and rational, you've got a better chance of getting called about something that you need from a dealer or another collector.
Take care and have a great evening!
Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!
lynnfrank@earthlink.net
outerbankyank on eBay!
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
<< <i>What he called NM, I call VG-EX >>
Truer words have never been spoken. I've spent over $1k this month buying raw 60s lots on eBay. Some were truly NM/7 but many were overgraded. It's a good thing I am not trying to build/submit a graded set, I just like the fun of buying old card lots - reminds me of the old days. However, what started my recent buying spree was a card show at a mall with only 2 tables selling cards. I bought (2) 60, (2) 61 and (1) 65 star cards that I believe that would be graded 7 or 8, but for the price of a 5 or 6. With that success, I then went into eBay and have been lost ever since.
Putty,
Welcome to the boards.It sounds like you have caught the same lifetime illness that most of here have.It is highly contagious and there is no cure.Welcome to the insane ward
Vic
Where's your jesus fish? That 50 year old card you speak of is 69 years old. It's awesome isn't it?
Hey Frank...I'm the good friend that got Putty hooked. I recently hooked him up with a nice '34 Goudey Charlie Gehringer. Little does he know the jokes on him......that one card will change his life. He will forever be doomed with surfing eBay, web-sites, the Fort, and countless other sources for "the deal".
Money? HAH. Kiss it goodbye. Welcome to the boards Greg. You'll find info on everything here.
AKA..
Ebay - mpn2gwvputty
Ratso of the Booze Junkies MC
What I've found is that to get raw cards suitable for grading on eBay is an unrealistic expectation. Any person that says a card is suitable for grading is either lying or realizes that grading the card is not worth the risk/cost if it doesn't obtain a good grade. Having said that, I've found that the remaining cards are usually accurately graded. If a seller says average Ex+, I expect half to be VG or worse and the rest to be EX+. There will be a couple of outliers (P/F/G and some ExMt or NM) but you will not find a card on eBay that is pre-1975 that will grade NM-MT.
While I've only been collecting again for less than a year, the only cards I bought raw and had graded (achieving PSA 8's) were bought at a Tri-Star show and at two local card shops.
I'm trying to make up big chunks of missing cards in 5 sets in the 60's and I'm too impatient (and poor) to pursue these cards in graded form. As a result, I'm pretty pleased with trolling the lots of cards that are anywhere from G to ExMt since I can afford these and not pay more than $3/card. Surprisingly, I've found that collecting raw cards has taught me how to judge graded cards. Access to raw cards has given me a little insight into the years I'm collecting and helped me realize when a card is worth chasing in graded for or whether I should just keep my raw filler for the time being. Given my economic constraint, I just can't afford to learn with graded cards.
What is also frustrating about buying graded cards is that no two graded cards are the same. I find I've been dissappointed in some of the graded cards I've bought because even if technically they make the grade (or not), they're not the most appealing cards because of some issue or another. I have yet to learn how to discern this on eBay auctions since scans just aren't good enough to make these judgements.
When times change I will pursue a couple of graded sets, but in the meantime, I think I qualify as the slop eating hog that TG mentioned above.
eBay auctions
In all seriousness, in situations like that, why even try to rationalize and prove your point? If the guy is that much of a jerk, there is no way you can convince him of any point. The man is a bonafide idiot. I like to try my best to laugh those instances off, but I admit, it is not easy all the time.
God Bless this Hobby!
The ironic part is right across the aisle from him was a dealer who specialized in McFarlane Sportspicks figures. I've been resisting the urge to collect these figures. The detail and craftmanship is superb. The price point ($10-$15) for most figures is affordable. This dealer also had many of the hard to find variants and chase figures. Since it was a slow show (and the dealer was friendly and knowledgeable), I ended up dropping $700 and buying a bunch. I guess I collect these now
I was thinking back to the 1980s when I was building vintage sets and remembering what I considered "Mint". Cards should have no visible corner dings or dogears and nice sharp picture. I don't recall being too picky on centering unless it was miscut. Now I am thinking that when I go look for graded 60s stars, I like a nice photo and good centering, I can live with ExMt corners because it's about eye appeal, not 10x loupe appeal.