Do you use PVC?

1jester · October 28, 2003 10:36PM

To what lengths, if any, do you go to avoid PVC? If you still use PVC, may I ask why?

Isn't PVC harmful enough to coins to be avoided at all costs? Shouldn't we do our utmost to rid the numismatic world of this abomination?

A Cartwheel for your thoughts?!

Aethelred · October 28, 2003 10:41PM

What grade is the Cartwheel?

JohnZ · October 28, 2003 10:45PM

I don't use PVC, except in my plumbing. There, there's my thought. Now I wanna see Jester do a cartwheel.

spinaker2000 · October 28, 2003 10:51PM

I have no idea why ALL dealers don't reholder every coin in a PVC flip. That's the first thing I do when the coins get home. I also like nice clean 2x2's, with ledgible writing. As of late, I've been considering moving all my raw coins to paper envelopes. Cooke has them FS on his site now.

laurentyvan · October 28, 2003 11:13PM

My french 1964 FDC set came in a long, multi-pocketed soft (pvc?) holder (holder not the right word; envelope maybe). Luckily there was no damage to the coins; I did remove them and airtite them but the holder is still with the box in case I ever need to sell the set so it's still original. I imagine that the hard non-pvc flips are not popular with some because of their tendency to break and crack, while the softer pvc is malleable and stays in one piece. Still, no pvc for me! For the short term, paper envelopes are probably a real good alternative.

MacCrimmon · October 28, 2003 11:37PM

<< paper envelopes are probably a real good alternative. >>

If using envelopes (certified sulfur-free preferrably), you should wrap tightly in a jewelers tissue or risk further wear and such from the coin moving around inside said envelope, or use the 2x2 cotton liners, especially for high grade material.

PVC?

1jester · October 28, 2003 11:45PM

An unfortunate side effect of paper envelopes is that the coins can rub, which is harmful to uncirculated coins. Still, it beats PVC. One could always put the coin inside some kind of pouch, then in the (hopefully inert) envelopes, but this is a fancy and expensive proposition. Nonetheless, this is Rodent-Recommended. See how MacCrimmon holders his best coppers and other coins--exactly this way, using inert envelopes holding the coins wrapped inside some kind of inert jeweler's paper inside some kind of inert cotton (?) pouch. I'll leave it to the Mouse to elaborate, but it's safe and secure. But you can't see the coins.

I use inert (hard) flips made by E&T Kointainer (Saflips). They do crack at the seam over time, and tend to develop scratches if left in contact with or slid against other surfaces. Nonetheless, being inert and harmless to the coins, I use these on most of my coins, even though they're not too cheap. I have some Airtites but only because I've bought coins in them. I like them but they take up a lot of room and are hard to store and display. I have a couple of sl*bs too, and a few low value coins inside envelopes. I have a few coins in Eagle 2X2 holders too, but I haven't bought Eagle holders. I like them too. Also, I'm starting to use the Mac-style system for nice coppers and silver. However, the vast bulk of my coins are in Saflips, which I find to be a good solution to the age-old problem of coin storage.

I hope dealers and collectors wake up to the fact that PVC kills coins, and cease and desist using that poison.

edited to say that it looks like Da Mouse beat me to mentioning his idea....

cosmicdebris · October 29, 2003 12:05AM

PVC is great on chicken

newbiecollector · October 29, 2003 12:34AM

<< PVC is great on chicken >>

So is catsup....... for some folks....

MacCrimmon · October 29, 2003 12:53AM

<< I'll leave it to the Mouse to elaborate, but it's safe and secure. But you can't see the coins. >>

That's why they're photographed.....all day, every day, a screen saver for the Mouse. They're locked up anyway.

Everyone recalls the Watt, Jr. specimens which came from his family estate about this time last year.....200 years old and mind-blowing virgin quality. How were they stored? Most were in a tissue of some type (probably watch papers) which was very many layers folded over the coin or medal, and then they were placed inside of brass shells or silver lined brass shells. Note, the oxidation attacked the brass shells, but not the coins.

Now, you would have to have a special screw-type brass shell manufactured if you wanted to do the same today or just place in the inert, sulfur-free envelopes and then in some fairly air-tite container with dessicant......that's about the best you can do IMHO.

FWIW, this is what I use for all my raw coins (80-85%) in my personal collection.

Cheers, and remember; you are tomorrow's caretakers of your coins today!!

elverno · October 29, 2003 1:37AM

I use Saflips and archival quality tissue as a buffer against rub.
The cloth bags are an interesting idea but bring up a few questions:

What material; cotton, linen...?
Are they chemical and lint free?
Where do you get them?

Are you using a dessicant such as silica gel or an electric dehumidfier or...

1jester · October 29, 2003 1:44AM

Whether in the Saflips, or swaddled away Mac-style, my coins all sit inside air-tight tins with a few packets of silica gel to keep humidity in check. That's about all I can think to do.

MacCrimmon · October 29, 2003 1:49AM

<< The cloth bags are an interesting idea but bring up a few questions:

What material; cotton, linen...?
Are they chemical and lint free?
Where do you get them?

Are you using a dessicant such as silica gel or an electric dehumidfier or...

>>

1. Cotton
2. Chemical free, but not lint free (maybe 90% free)....that's one reason I use the tissue; but, also as another anti-tarnish protection measure and further protection against abrasion.
3. Rod Burress is the only source for these cotton pouches which I've found over the years. He's an Early American Coppers guy.
4. Yes, I use small dessicant pouches with the pink/blue indicator strip. I have a hundred or so pouches which I rotate in and out. These are the type you can re-use by baking for 3-4 hours at low temp. (150-170F) in an oven.

To go the extra mile, the elec. dehumidifier would be even better, though.

elverno · October 29, 2003 2:00AM

I asked about the electric de-humidifier because I was grumping to my wife this past weekend that my safe was getting too full. Now before anyone offers to provide permanent storage (I'm beginning to understand this group

), I have to say that the only up-side to the fires here in California is that it made my wife start thinking about protecting what's important that we may not be able to easily carry off.

So I've started looking at seriously fire-lined gun safes reconfigured for my needs. They seem to all use electric dehumidifiers (or huge bags of silica). Hmmm....

1jester · October 29, 2003 2:27AM

Well, Vern, if you're not successful in convincing your better half of the need to get a nice gun safe, then I suppose you'll still have plenty of offers of others to help you lighten your load....

rhound1977 · October 29, 2003 3:35AM

I wrap my coins in wax paper, then double wrap them again in aluminum foil, then put them in a zip lock bag so they don't get freezer burn.

Yep I keep my coins in the freezer, not to many burglars steel stuff outa the freezer.....

CIVITAS · October 29, 2003 3:40AM

<< I have no idea why ALL dealers don't reholder every coin in a PVC flip. >>

As a dealer I can tell you why. The cost. Non-PVC flips are approx 3 times as expensive as regular flips. Plus, since most coins are handled a few times, if not more before they actually sell, the flips tend to crack and split from use. So not only do they cost 3X as much to start, you have to use 25% more flips to replace the cracked and broken ones as time goes on. Then factor in the time to replace busted flips every week and it's just not good business. Vinyl flips are fine for short term storage for most coins (i.e. a few days, weeks or months in a tray). I use the PVC free flips for coins with sensitive surfaces like UNC copper and silver, proof coins and other special strikes, even for short term storage. A roman bronze that spent the last 1800 years in the ground can handle a vinyl flip for a few months. Try getting a sestertius into a brittle flip without cracking it. It's quite the exercise in futility.

For long term storage for collectors, I can not stress enough the importance of PVC free flips, after recently having to PEEL coins out of an album with vinyl pages and vinyl flips that was about 20 years old. Most coins were unharmed. Some were damaged. All were VERY sticky. Blech.

historygeek · October 29, 2003 7:35AM

I use silica gel from packages of cookies, is this ok? And where can I find an extra large coin holder for a coin that does not fit into a 2x2 vinyl flip?

1jester · October 29, 2003 8:00AM

You can buy large, "Crown-Size" flips, which are 2.5 X 2.5 inches. Saflips come in such sizes.

I'd imagine the silica gel packs you get from cookies are as good as any other. Anybody think differently?

wybrit · October 29, 2003 11:39AM

PVC

Should not even be used to ship coins.

wybrit · October 29, 2003 9:07PM

Also, I think paper is a terrible way to go unless you are careful like MacCrimmon. I have seen a lot of wonderful coins utterly destroyed by that storage method. Sellers who have coins in paper force potential buyers to slide the coin out (a sound like nails on a blackboard). Of course, most coins slide right back in fro the next potential buyer to view. In the process, lots of wear takes place.

spoon · October 30, 2003 3:03AM

I have all my good stuff in a Lindner album.. still don't have much so one is enough!

But I've been wondering about what to expand into?? I haven't seen many "flips".. got one or two coins off ebay that came in them. So, I don't know if you guys are talking about the same thing, but can't coins slide around in those? They're one-size-fit-all the ones I know of? How does that work out? Are they really better than sized cardboard 2x2s?

Also, what about these self-sealing 2x2s? Do you guys trust them? JP is now selling them here. The specs say they're safe, but what are your experiences/suspicions?

(Plus, I've won some coins from Mac and must say, I am impressed by his method!!)

MacCrimmon · October 30, 2003 3:33AM

Regarding paper 2x2 envelopes:

1. Never put the coin directly into the envelope. Not only will it be hairlined over time, but the sulfur in the envelopes will create a nasty haze in usually a very short time depending on temp/humidity conditions.

2. I now wrap all my coins in the anti-tarnish, lint-free jewelers tissue (watch papers) because of an observation which occurred over a 3-4 year period in one case and over a longer period of about 8 years.

The first instance was with Gallery Mint Museum silver and copper coins which were "bare" inside of the cotton 2x2 liners (pouches). They were stored inside some of Rod Burress's grey colored, 28# paper 2x2s. Within this time frame they have started to develop a light purple/rose tint on the rims, extending inwards by about 3mm.

The second instance was a couple of Swiss half francs which were BU, and subsequently slabbed as MS67 by NGC. One, the 1937 developed the most beautiful rainbow speckeled toning over just that 8 years or so. It was also "bare" inside a pouch and cheap, white paper 2x2. Coins develop this 'speckling' probably due to the unevenness of the cotton contacting the coin. The cotton serves as a transport to the "bare" coin from the sulfur-laden envelope.

In short, that is why I added these two additional measures for this type storage, namely, tightly wrapped in the tissues, and known, ARCHIVAL QUALITY (sulfur-free) paper 2x2 envelopes.

I'm also currently working on typesetting, albeit slowly, an archival adhesive/paper label which can be laser printed with details pertinent to each coin. This can then be affixed to the envelope.

The method using the Air-tites inside of a PVC crown-sized soft flip is also a very good method, IMHO, for long-term storage which is not deleterious to the coins.

Coin collectors, as doctors, should first endeavour to, "do no harm"!

Cheers,

MacCrimmon

1jester · October 30, 2003 3:50AM

But Mac, why not use non-PVC Crown-sized flips for the Air-tites? It seems to me that it's not even worth introducing PVC in any form into the coin storage environment, regardless of whether or not Air-tites are air tight.

wybrit · October 30, 2003 11:44AM

But Mac, why not use non-PVC Crown-sized flips for the Air-tites?

I use non-PVC filps for the Airtites and they are pretty much useless. Being too thick, the Airtite puts too much stress on the spine of the flip, causing it to break.

PVC flips are probably OK if used in the manner Mac recommends.

MacCrimmon · October 30, 2003 12:58PM

<< PVC flips are probably OK if used in the manner Mac recommends. >>

I hope so! I believe the PVC flips in contact with the acrylic (or polycabonate??) of an Air-tite plastic disk would cause no reaction per se on the coin. It's the chlorine breakdown against a metallic surface whereby the problem is encountered, and hence the deserved reputation of PVC flips as a long-term, direct storage medium.

Maybe Civitas can speak to personal long-term storage of this type. I know Mr. Lorich employs the Air-tite solution stored inside of these PVC flips (coin in one half and his descriptions in the other half). IMO, the more important aspect of dealing with either a plastic slab or Air-tite disk is the temp/humidity control, or any storage medium for that matter.

Regarding the Air-tites also, I have stored some coins from the past using their chipboard/velveteen holders with the cutout for the plastic disk and have seen no effects of oxidation after about 8 years (one specific instance is a nice, tidy 1965 5 Franc piece which is as BU as the day it was installed). However, that said, I do not know what the composition of that "chipboard" material is, but if problematic in a direct contact situation, it has not proven so inside of the plastic capsule.

Well, FWIW, that's my 2 rappens. Cheers.

spinaker2000 · October 30, 2003 1:21PM

Good answers all, and now I have a better feel for the reason dealers do what they do.

I like the airtite solution and have ordered them before, looks like i'll order some more.

Do you use PVC?

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