What a difference the plastic makes when it comes to market value.
Russ
Posts: 48,514 ✭✭✭
Picked this off on Teletrade last night for $18:
It's an NGC MS66. The same coin in a PCGS holder would bring over $100. This is a strange market.
Russ, NCNE
It's an NGC MS66. The same coin in a PCGS holder would bring over $100. This is a strange market.
Russ, NCNE
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Comments
I'd give more for a raw one in MS66. These are a tough coin. But that would be based on the opportunity to see the coin in-hand. Of course I won't know if this one actually makes the grade until I get it in but, at what I paid for it, there isn't much downside.
Russ, NCNE
Russ, NCNE
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
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Now, and I don't want to put Russ on the spot, so anyone can answer this one for me. After I accept your $5, I offer you a brand new looking very nice and smooth great luster Morgan dollar - Clean cheek, clean fields, no discernable marks - nice coin. MS65/66 territory. It's an 1881S so you know it's common. And you know that in a PCGS holder it's maybe $150-160 in MS66 and $75-80 in MS65. What would you offer for my raw coin?
I'll look at it when I get it in. If it's a dog, I'll sell it to you.
Frank,
To get serious for a moment, on a raw one that graded 66, my starting point would be $20 just for the technical grade. It would go up from there based on eye appeal. Of course, if I can pick them off cheaper, I'm sure going to.
Russ, NCNE
<< <i>I'll look at it when I get it in. If it's a dog, I'll sell it to you. >>
No Deal...I said, "Sight unseen!"
Doggedly collecting coins of the Central American Republic.
Visit the Society of US Pattern Collectors at USPatterns.com.
Anacs holder - decent looking coin.
Raw coin for 3x as much without a pic.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
it might be interesting to note that what you probably mean is a coin of the same grade in a PCGS holder, or at least that's what i figure most collectors, myself included, mean when statements similar to that are made. it's really hard to know what the NGC coin would fetch in a PCGS holder because it might not grade the same. that's the twist with how we use that "same coin in another holder" phrase. in reality, we never know what the same coin in another holder might fetch or even be graded cause we never see it in another holder. generalities.
i guess it all boils down to the presumption that PCGS holdered same grade coins are worth more. since the coin is the same, there must be an added value that collectors are willing to pay a premium for. it's a given that they're willing to pay a premium for a holdered coin over a raw one in many cases.
it's nice to be able to cherry pick holders!!
al h.
We almost always ssume that whatever the slabbed coin is, it will crossover to PCGS with the same grade.
Everyone knows PCGS leads the market. It's all supply and demand. The supply and demand of a certain coin is not like it was 20 years ago. Because now the supply and demand has another factor, or factors: Is it slabbed? Who slabbed it?
For whatever reason, most people prefer a PCGS graded coin when they are looking to buy, as proven by the fact that these people (me included) are usually willing to pay the price to own the PCGS specimen, which is a higher price than any other slab (because the demand is higher for that slab versus the others).
By the way there are many decent NGC coins showing up on teletrade. I bought a really neat 1970-S NCG PF67Ultra Cam for $12. I've had several of these i recent weeks from teletrade. The neat thing is they all look really nice. I can't make them for that.
Even if I only get $25 per, that's still a good deal.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
Wow. I would think you'd want to pay as little as possible for the coin you want in the grade you want. If the market is willing to pay $600 for a certain coin in PCGS MS65, why wouldn't you buy one in that grade raw or in another holder for less and submit it?
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
I don't own any 40% Kennedies worth even that, much less the $100 you report that a PCGS 66 goes for, my examples cost me a couple of dollars each and of course, they are raw and just BU, not gem.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
Now why are the NCG moderns selling for a fraction of what PCGS moderns sell for? Do you think it is because NGC's holders are white and PCGS's are clear? Is it because NGC has only three letters and PCGS has four letters in their names? HECK NO!! We all know why this is happening. NGC's modern grading is all over the board. PCGS is by no means perfect, but NGC needs to hire some consistent modern graders or stop giving everyone grading gifts on their submissons.imo
Mintluster you keep saying that PCGS leads the market. I suggest you go to a show and notice all of the collectors pouring through binders of raw coins or examining cardboard flips. Most of them might vaguely know who PCGS is. Put a nicer coin for the grade in an ANACS holder and I guarantee it will sell for a higher price to these collectors. That is the reality in my universe. I would suggest that there are many more collectors out there in that universe, then in your universe that you created that believes a PCGS encapsulated coin is worth more. Do you keep saying that to convince yourself?
On the other end of the spectrum do you truly believe than an 1884 proof 66 deep cameo $20 gold liberty would bring more in a PCGS holder then a NGC holder? Of course it wouldn't and the market agrees. Somewhere in between those extremes a universe has been created and marketed by Collectors Universe that has convinced collectors that a coin must be worth more if its in their holder. Maybe that is why they call themselves collectors universe. Maybe that is why the registry is so important to them. Have we not been caught up in the universe of marketing hype?
A coin is what it is.
Edited to add: Russ I have done that myself on Teletrade, I hope the coin is a keeper.
a premium over other less-consistant grading services.
Russ, NCNE
No good deed will go unpunished.
Free Money Search
i think you're looking past what mintluster is saying, and in fact what Russ says in the opening post. whether many of us agree with it or understand the reason why it's so, the market as a whole places a premium on a similar coin in a PCGS holder over the others. your example to Put a nicer coin for the grade in an ANACS holder isn't really a good comparison for the market as a whole. "it" will generally feel more comfortable in that situation with the PCGS coin. wierd but unfortunately true. as i posted, i like to cherry pick holders in those cases and oddly enough i have a wide variety of companies represented in my collection as a result. moving to your $20 gold example, the market as a whole doesn't purchase that coin, it has a rather limited collector base, but i think you know that.
the value of a coin might not depend on who's holder it's in, but there is a large segment of the hobby which places value over and above the coin depending on who's holder the coin is in. that intrinsic value or added value affects most all of us.
al h.
the trick is to make it work to your advantage and prove the saying that knowledge is power.
al h.
Too much price difference between 64-65. It looked clean from what I could see, and when the guy left I asked the dealer if it was as nice as what I could see. He replied it was indeed that nice but he couldn't gamble because of the holder bias. Now I'm not the kind of guy to do this, but I would have gladly given the guy the 600.00 he wanted for it. A coin like that is worth over 1000.00.... well, in the right holder correct?
Coins should have an intrinsic value. If they are indeed rare, they should be recognized as rare, in or out of the holder. Unfortunately, and guys I have moderns, this isn't the case for moderns yet.
al h.
Frank, don't spoil the teaparty.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
Loose coins are a different animal. They can change, and with a coin in PF 70 or 69, or MS 69 or 68, the only way they can change is for the worse.
Whereas a slab don't do much for a bust half in EF (you can break the coin out, flip it heads or tails, carry it in your pocket for a day, it aint going to ruin it, and it will probably be worth very close to the same amount whether raw as slabbed, in that grade range)
conversely, a slab does everything for a ultra high grade, relatively modern coin.
First, an expert eye has judged it to be a certain grade.
Second, it guarantees that grade and protects the coin.
It sounds like those who know what they're doing are having a great time in modern coins and slabs are a very useful tool, just as they serve the same functions of documentation of grade and protection of coins for any age or condition, if the coin deserves it.
I DO think a lot of coins get slabbed that would be just fine left in the original mint packaging, primarily issues minted since, oh, 1970 or so
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
I am not going to get into why collectors are often times seeking to buy the $400 pile of plastic vs. the $56 pile - but, obviously, there is now opportunities (sight-seen opportunities) to pick up non-PCGS slabbed MS moderns (like the 69(d) half or these Ikes) at a fraction, especially in NGC and ANACS product
Wondercoin
peacockcoins
I just had a conversation with someone who is contemplating purchasing a very rare and expensive seated dollar. This is a coin that I had a chance to buy as a PCGS MS64 - once privately and once at auction. I believed it to be a very nice coin but not enough nicer than mine to justify the hassle of having to pull the money together and then sell mine.
After the coin sold at auction for around $60,000 it was sent to NGC where, you guessed it, the grade on the holder changed. The new asking price became $125,000! Now I ask you - what has changed about the coin? It's the exact same piece that it was before the plastic changed, so in reality, why should it be worth more? I guess it's the power of the holder. In this case, the PCGS holder cost the owner money! I figure the coin itself is worth $75,000 and that the PCGS MS64 holder had a $15,000 drag on value whereas the NGC MS65 holder has a $15,000 addition on value. That puts market value, IMO, at $90,000 [even tho in my mind the coin is really only worth $75,000].
Now let's not get into the different standards between the companies. I don't believe the coin will ever cross to PCGS but that's in part because PCGS grades seated dollars soooo tight. Each company has their own standard and tries with all their might to grade to it. Who's standard is 'right' and who's is 'wrong' isn't much relevant. Trust me when I say there is an incredible value opportunity in high end PCGS MS64 seated dollars. I'm sure that the coin fits right in the middle of NGC's MS65 range.
So there you have it. The moral of the story is: it cuts both ways. In most instances, given the same grade and the same coin, the PCGS holder will bring more money on the market. But in the cases where you've got a liner coin, the NGC higher holder will bring more money on the market. The trick is to know which instance is which!
<< <i>The thing that bugs me about a lot of moderns right now is that many dealers don't yet recognize their value >>
That works for me.
Witness these coins:
I paid $3 for the set these are in, (the half is untoned). The dealer I bought them from, who's 70 years old if he's a day, said "if you want to waste three bucks, they're yours".
Now, none of them are high grade, but I'll guarantee the set will bring a lot more than $3.
That attitude also makes cherry picking higher grade proof, SMS and BU Kennedy halves a lot easier. I even ocassionally come across older dealers who don't care about cameo coins unless it was minted before they were born.
Russ, NCNE
PCGS 82.47%
NGC 80.02%
ANACS 56.03%
ICG 78.76%
PCI 59.33%
SEGS 57.12%
NCI 35.03%
INS 32.80%
granted, this is from a very small sample (twenty coins, two grades from each of 10 U.S. series), but it gives an idea of how the market, which of course determines "market value" is working, to some degree, at a particular point in time.
interesting that ICG, PCI and SEGS are all "valued" higher than ANACS....
How many people are good enough to play the slab game and determine if a particular coin, raw or slabbed, is a 64, 65, or 66? This is the key for me: how do we determine with any degree of certainty what the "proper" grade for a particular coin is? How do the services? This is rather confounding.
"Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you." -Luke 11:9
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<< <i>I believe as long as PCGS keeps to tight standards their coins will always command... >>
Now go across the street, change PCGS to NGC, and you'll see the same post.
TDN as far as your example, would you pay $125,000 for that coin if it were in a PCGS 65 holder? Is it a $75,000 coin or a $125,000 coin?
No, but I'd probably pay $100k. Guess the PCGS plastic is worth $10k more than the NGC plastic to me!
<< <i>TDN as far as your example, would you pay $125,000 for that coin if it were in a PCGS 65 holder? Is it a $75,000 coin or a $125,000 coin?
No, but I'd probably pay $100k. Guess the PCGS plastic is worth $10k more than the NGC plastic to me!
:
Edited to add: I love honesty.
IrishMike: That is not to say that the plastic itself is worth any more to me, however the somewhat reasonable expectation that the coin in the plastic would continue to have a higher degree of liquidity and that I would receive that premium should I ever sell is.
Meaning that there is an interplay among a coin's "actual" grade, slabbed grade, and liquidity as such in the marketplalce that it is best not to ignore, if one desires buy good values, or at least not to be "buried" in a coin's price.
Liberty: Parent of Science & Industry
<< <i>The point that I was trying to make is that it seems odd, and possibly scary that the same coin, whether it is surrounded by plastic or not, can have 3 different prices. Granted just about all coins except those in "major collections" are going to trade at somewhat lower prices than those slabbed. Here's the thing, if you walk into any dealer, look at a 69D Kennedy in a holder, you might, if you recognize that it's a gem plus, pay more than "the going rate" for a choice BU coin, however, if it's in the junk bin, as many of these coins are, you're not going to complain about paying $5 or less for the coin. Now, I'm willing to wager, that if you break that coin from it's 66 holder and take it to any dealer, the best you're going to get is melt. That's an unfortunate fact of life. The thing that bugs me about a lot of moderns right now is that many dealers don't yet recognize their value, and therefore you wind up basically with two extremes. What the coin is worth raw, and what the coin is worth to a collector of that series in a PCGS holder.
Coins should have an intrinsic value. If they are indeed rare, they should be recognized as rare, in or out of the holder. Unfortunately, and guys I have moderns, this isn't the case for moderns yet. >>
This is very true and a concept that took me a long time to grasp because I simply for-
got what these coins looked like to me before I started collecting them.
The problem is that while there are many millions of collectors of moderns and hundreds
of thousands of people collecting the older moderns, these people for the main part have
very little knowledge of coins and the markets. Only a few have advanced much past col-
lecting the coins from pocket change. It isn't even yet apparent exactly what these collect-
ors are going to value much less how much they will value it. Very few of them are buying
slabs yet but they are buying coins now and some patterns are beginning to emerge. Those
who service these new collectors are having difficulty stocking things like '83-P quarters and
proof and mint sets. The demand for most of the moderns slabbed or raw just keeps growing.
The prices are beginning to reflect just which ones are in tight supply and it will be seen that
slabbing will not harm the saleability of these coins.
I can think of a dozen reasons not to have high capacity magazines, but it's the reasons I haven't thought about that I need them.
every treasure on Earth
to be young at heart?
And as rich as you are,
it's much better by far,
to be young at heart!