Stacks, Sothebys & Heritage
ohbaby
Posts: 768
Growing up I remember Stacks was the proverbial gorrilla of the auction business. It appears today they are an afterthought. What happened in the interim [I stopped collecting for almost 25yrs] where Heritage surpassed them?
Has Sothebys ever had a coin/stamp auction venture? Seems like it would be a natural. I know they really got messed up with their ebay venture as well as the price fixing scandal that brought down Taubman and Brooks.
Has Sothebys ever had a coin/stamp auction venture? Seems like it would be a natural. I know they really got messed up with their ebay venture as well as the price fixing scandal that brought down Taubman and Brooks.
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Comments
Abuella, this does not mean Stacks is no longer a major auctioneer. They were "the" auctioneer way back when. Not anymore. Look at these numbers taken from websites/price realized. Additionally unless Stacks is handling a major important "anchor" collection [such as Ford] their turnouts are average to below average.
COndor, thanks for clearing that up. Makes alot of sense as old timers sell and old time collections get dispersed and slabbed there is less fresh raw to sell.
Superior Sales in millions this year
Feb $6.4
May $9.5
Sep $4.9
Heritage in the last 90 days
$35.1 million
Stacks in millions
$5.6 part 1 of Ford
Didn't bother to check BM, ANR, Goldberg
My question is more historical in nature than anything else. What were the events which catapulted Heritage into the lead and the others withered, particularly Stacks. Was it leadership? Internet initiatives? Marketing? We all saw what happened to BM.
<< <i>
Abuella (sic), this does not mean Stacks is no longer a major auctioneer. They were "the" auctioneer way back when. Not anymore. Look at these numbers taken from websites/price realized. Additionally unless Stacks is handling a major important "anchor" collection [such as Ford] their turnouts are average to below average.
My question is more historical in nature than anything else. What were the events which catapulted Heritage into the lead and the others withered, particularly Stacks. >>
<< <i>
Abuella (sic), this does not mean Stacks is no longer a major auctioneer. They were "the" auctioneer way back when. Not anymore. What were the events which catapulted Heritage into the lead and the others withered, particularly Stacks. Was it leadership? Internet initiatives? Marketing? We all saw what happened to BM. >>
<< <i>
Abuella (sic), this does not mean Stacks is no longer a major auctioneer. They were "the" auctioneer way back when. Not anymore. Look at these numbers taken from websites/price realized. Additionally unless Stacks is handling a major important "anchor" collection [such as Ford] their turnouts are average to below average.
My question is more historical in nature than anything else. What were the events which catapulted Heritage into the lead and the others withered, particularly Stacks. >>
Since when has Stack's withered? - you only quote the total PR from Ford I - Stack's/Coin Galleries hold at least an auction a month sometimes more than that. What are their totals year to date?
As Conder so aptly pointed out, Stack's isn't about to insult the intelligence of their customers by pedaling tons of recycled plastic. Yes, Stack's assumes that their customers have the knowledge to be able to think for themselves and don't need others to make their decisions for them.
As for Stack's having been THE auction house 'way back when', just when was that anyways? In the '50's and '60's if any auction house could have been considered THE auction house it would have been New Netherlands. While Wormser manned the front, Ford and Breen revolutionized the entire concept of coin auctions. In the '70's and '80's QDB and the Goldberg's (Superior) were every bit on the par with Stack's.
Laura hit the nail right on the head with her comments regarding Halpern/Ivy/ Heritage and the type of growth that they have realized by tapping into, not only the internet, but also the 'ya don't need to know nuthin' about these great investments cuz they been certified' marketing mentality that has tapped into many very deep pockets.
Stack's has been in business since 1935 how many of your 'major' auction houses - past or present- can say that?
When I think of Heritage I of Steve and Jim.
Having consigned collections to both firms, and having bought from them at retail and auctions as well, I have to admit no particularly positive feeling for either. When I see a coin being offered by Heritage on eBay I immediately hit the "back" button. The last coin I recall buying from Stack's was a raw shield nickel, 1868 I believe, that was graded by them as MS65. I sent it in to PCGS and it came back MS64. That was probably 5-6 years ago. I haven't dealt with them since.
Case in point. I was very interested in the 1851-O "Branch Mint Proof" Trime in their past sale. Had someone look at it for me and it was most certainly not a rare proof. Dont know if I could have told the difference or not (I would hope so) but dont believe the auctioneer. Kind of like the way you shouldnt take PCGS's or NGC's word sight unseen either...
John
siliconvalleycoins.com
The promotion of slabs since 1986, has propelled Heritage into the lead while Stacks stayed steady at what they were doing. Remember that Heritage was selling some serious raw schlock in the
1980's before slabbing become the thing. It no doubt was hard for them to rebuild that image but it appears they have done it. I can still recall getting a stripped and cleaned "MS65" 1858-0 seated quarter in the mail from Heritage for $3000 (on approval) back in 1983. In fact the coin was an AU worth all of several hundred dollars at best. Luckily, Brad Bohnert at Superior had a real gem
1858-0 coming up in auction that year that he sent to me on approval before the sale. I ended up buying that one. Both coins were priced about the same in 1983. Today, the better coin is worth $15,000+ as a MS65/66 while the other one is still worth a few hundred dollars.
It's taken me a long time to try and erase things like this from my memory. That was what the 1980's were like before PCGS. Lots of bad shots were taken from 1975-1985. But with time, things have improved.
roadrunner
Stacks is old blood, old money & old ways and very good at what they do. It Is A Classic!! (You better know what your'e doing when bidding in their auctions.)
B & M was a high-end boutique, now wanting to be a Heritage. (the only auction house I would consider buying a raw coin sight unseen from)
Superior old name with a new face. These guys are working hard to get quality consignments and run a good auction.
Goldbergs- two brothers trying to make a good living
ANR- B & M reincarnated (what does does the future hold, rumors, rumors??)
What have your experiences been.
We ARE watching you.
Regarding the others, IMO, Stacks is a dinosaur. With their outdated grading system and disdain for slabs, they are limiting their bidders to those onsite who are experts in their field, willing to bid on raw coins (or crazy people risking taking a bath on a purchase). Heritage is my favorite, with excellent absentee bidder support via the Internet. If I were consigning coins for sale, fees being close to equal, I'd choose Heritage, as I believe they attract the largest audience of bidders.
2 years ago I would have told you that Stack's was a dinosaur (in fact I vaguely remember posting exactly that) and were peddling expensive raw coins primarily to ill-mannered 90 year old men who were computer illiterate.
With a bit of experience under my belt and hours and hours and hours of research later, I have concluded that Stack's is a dinosaur, however they do routinely offer the finest coins available anywhere. They also happen to cater to a totally different clientele than the rest of the companies - namely one that is comprised of primarily very knowledgeable collectors, dealers, etc.
Do you have any idea what percentage of all coins come to market first at Stack's raw, then find their way into slabs and then eventually show up at Heritage, or Superior, or Bowers, or Goldberg? I do because I track this stuff and the percentage would shock you.
Heres what routinely happens: Stacks has an auction. Most of the coins are raw from an older collection. The best coins get snapped up by knowledgeable collectors. The 2nd tier of material sells to knowledgeable specialist dealers who then sell it to knowledgeable collectors. The 3rd tier of material gets purchased by non-specialist dealers, gets slabbed a couple of grading points higher and then shows up in a continuing cycle of dealer inventory to Heritage, Goldberg, Superior and other auctions until it winds up in some not-that-knowledgeable collectors cabinet.
Obviously, there are exceptions to this 'rule'. Stack's does sell some lousy overgraded coins. Sometimes dealers buy good ones. Sometimes Heritage or one of the other firms surfaces some excellent new material, etc. But by and large its as I described.
So if you think stack's isn't offering anything any good, then why don't you take a good long look at some of your slabbed coins and try to trace tham back to a previous auction appearance. Sure - they may be ex-Heritage, and before that ex-Goldberg. But that chain started somewhere, and more often than not its in mid-town Manhattan.
<< <i> They also happen to cater to a totally different clientele than the rest of the companies - namely one that is comprised of primarily very knowledgeable collectors, dealers, etc.
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And to think that a company that would have the audacity to cater to this type of collector! Disgusting, absolutely disgusting I tell you!
Unfortunately, I cannot say the same about Coin Galleries [their lower end sales]. In my beginning days, I purchased an 1876-CC trade dollar that [upon closer inspection years later] was holed and plugged and also a few other coins that ended up right at my maximum bid.
My advice is to have professional representation at their sales, but definitely to bid in their name sales.