7/8 TF--what??

BDP

I see this being listed being used in listings on ebay; what does it exactly mean? I know there are 8TF morgans and 7TF morgans, but 7/8???


by the way, I'm not a coin guy but a paper money guy.

dollardude

The 7/8 tail feathers is a specific variety of the 1878-P Morgan. This means that the tail feathers on the reverse are doubled so that they appear as 7 over 8. There are perhaps hundreds of VAMs on just this one specific variety. PCGS has wisely boiled down all of these VAMs to two specific varieties: 7/8TF strong and 7/8TF weak. The strong variety is just as it says -- the doubling is strong. The weak is likewise weak and harder to see. BTW, I am still looking for the 7/8TF strong, which is required in the basic PCGS Morgan registry set!

MrLee

It's a Morgan made from dies that were changed from 8 tail feathers to 7 tail feathers. In some cases the original 8 can still be seen sticking out from under the 7. 7 over 8. 7/8. The oringinal dies had to be changed as eagles have only seven tail feathers.

numobri

When the mint changed fron the 8TF to the 7TF reverse,they just rehubbed the 8TF dies with the 7TF hub and you can see part of the 8TF reverse under the 7TF reverse.

Skipper53

It saved the Mint a little money in 1878.
It made dealers a lot of money in 2003.
It gave collectors one more thing to fret over.

MrLee

Myqqy

I like skipper53's answer! And yet, I am still deeply yearning for a nice quality 7/8 tailfeather Morgan myself.

mintluster

Is it just me or are those things getting harder and harder to find?

Deadhorse

I don't think they are all that hard to find, they just don't come cheap.

For me, it's finding as many different kinds as I can. Some 7/8s have as many as 6 tails showing via naked eye, some 5 and so forth, till you get to where you need a 10X loup to see any remnants.

I'm still searching for the elusive 7 and 8 tails in a strong variety. Don't even know if they exist.

7 over showing 4 and 3 in a strong are the most common from my experience.

Gilbert

BDP & dollardude,

The 7/8 tailfeather variety IS the result of the "B" reverse, also known as the second reverse (7 tailfeather, flat breast, PAF and a couple other minor changes) being rehubbed over the "A" reverse (8TF and first reverse) PRIMARILY as a matter of expediency for increased output of silver dollars. It is alleged that some of the 8tf and 7/8tf have been hubbed over pattern dies and/or other 2nd reverse dies, for example a 7/8/7 - a 7tf die hubbed over a 8tf die already dubbed over a 7tf or pattern die. Again, this was done to put out more coins while the most acceptable 7tf die(s) were being cast.

Only SIXTEEN 7/8tf (B/A) varieties have been attributed; not hundreds, although there are a couple hundred varieties dated 1878 among the 3 obverse (Types I, II & the dual-hubbed II/I) and 4 reverse (Types A, A2/A1, B, B/A) designs. The "III" obverse & "C" reverse are the types employed from '79 thru '04 (each of those having sub-types) and the "IV" obverse and "D" reverse is that of 1921. The "C" reverse was used on some 1878s (pl) also and this combo is referred to as 1878 rev of '79.

The PCGS varieties are designated "weak" or "strong" based on the number of underlying tailfeathers present, NOT HOW VISIBLE they are; usually, four or more underlying feathers is considered the "strong" variety and three or less, the "weak" variety.

mintluster, yes they ARE becoming harder to find since they have received so much publicity; everything has gotten mucho publicity since the SQ program, a little too much if you ask me.

Anyway, this is a bit more info that asked, but I wanted to clear up a couple points, and answer a couple questions before they were asked.

deadhorse, the most common variety is the VAM33, which can have 3 to 5 underlying feathers showing, depending on the state of the die. There are 7/0, 7/3, 7/4, 7/5 and 7/7 types to be had. FYI - the 7/0 is a 7/8 except all the underlying feathers have been polished away. I have purchsed a couple 7/8s misattributed as 1878 rev of 78, which is a pleasant surprise.

Deadhorse

Gilbert,

I have a 7 over 3 visable and it's a PCGS MS63 holder labeled "strong". I also have a 7 over 4 visable in PCGS MS61 labeled "weak".

These are old slabs, I'll give you that. Perhaps grading has tightened up regarding these varieties.

Gilbert

deadhorse,

PCGS is not always on the ball with this variety. I have two unquestionably VAM38s (7/4), both PCGS and one is labeled weak while the other is labeled strong.

BTW, grading and attribution are two separate issues, or at least SHOULD be.

Libertad

The political and public determination to change the number of feathers is an interesting
bit of history. The widely published view that an ornithologist determined that 7 is the correct
number of tail-feathers seems hard to imagine.

US Fish and Game affirms that the number of tail feather on an adult eagle is 12!

Too many for the engravers to deal with?