Made my First AU Ike - Invoice totally hammered

segoja · October 16, 2003 9:05AM

How about that for bragging rights. Never have I missed on an Ike (BU vs AU that is), infact both PCGS and ANACS had graded the coin MS63 previously. I thought it was a 64.

Here is the invoice. I was totally hammered. Most every coin was in a PCGS holder and downgraded 1-2 grades.

1 21353341 1967 50C MS64 Raw Thought 65 shot 66
2 21353342 1973-D 50C MS65 Raw thought 66
2 21353343 1973-D 50C MS64 Raw thought 66
3 21353344 1971 $1 AU58 was PCGS and ANACS MS63 beautiful color
4 21353345 1971-D $1 MS64 PKOK Shot 66
4 21353346 1971-D $1 MS64 PKOK was PCGS 65
4 21353347 1971-D $1 MS65 PKOK thought lock 66
5 21353348 1972-D $1 MS64 PKOK shot 66
5 21353349 1972-D $1 MS64 PKOK shot 66
5 21353350 1972-D $1 MS64 PKOK shot 66
6 21353351 1973 $1 MS63 was PCGS 65
6 21353352 1973 $1 MS64 PKOK was PGCS and ANCS 65
6 21353353 1973 $1 MS63 was PCGS 65
7 21353354 1973-D $1 MS64 was PCGS 64 thought would upgrade
8 21353355 1974 $1 MS64 was PCGS 65
8 21353356 1974 $1 MS64 was PCGS 65
9 21353357 1974-D $1 MS64 super prooflike was PCGS 65
10 21353358 1976 $1 Type 1 MS64 was PCGS 65
11 21353359 1976-D $1 Type 1 MS64 was PCGS 65 thought lock 66
12 21353360 1976-D $1 Type 2 MS65 raw
12 21353361 1976-D $1 Type 2 MS66 was PCGS 66 this coin is almost perfect thought a real good shot at 67
13 21353362 1977-D $1 MS64 PKOK was SEGS 67
14 21353363 1971-S S$1 Silver MS65 though shot 67
14 21353364 1971-S S$1 Silver MS66 thought shot 67
15 21353365 1972-S S$1 Silver MS67 Thought lock 68
15 21353366 1972-S S$1 Silver MS67 Thought lock 68
15 21353367 1972-S S$1 Silver MS66 shot 68
16 21353368 1976-S S$1 Silver MS67 shot 68
16 21353369 1976-S S$1 Silver MS67 shot 68
16 21353370 1976-S S$1 Silver MS67 shot 68
16 21353371 1976-S S$1 Silver MS66 shot 68
16 21353372 1976-S S$1 Silver MS67 shot 68
17 21353373 1972-D 50C MS66 was 66, thought 67
18 21353374 1967 25C SMS MS67 s/b cameo

like to buy any coins that were graded by this group. I'm really not a bad grader, I just got hammered!!!

anybody had simliar results on moderns???

MoneyLA · October 16, 2003 9:33AM

A few weeks ago I expressed my disappointment about some frosted 1960 proof washingtons -- not one got a cam or dcam designation, and some 1955d washingtons, not one got above ms64.

live by the slab, die by the slab... cheers, alan mendelson

ALHENDER22 · October 16, 2003 9:45AM

Yea at least three times this year sent in 2003 P/D JFK's, I have
made 1 MS67 this year usualy by this time I have made 20 MS67's
and 3 to 6 MS68 JFK's I have been the proud getter of MS66,
MS65, MS64 and just to totally kick me while I am down one MS63.

Allen

cosmicdebris · October 16, 2003 10:35AM

That's got to be totally disappointing.

wondercoin · October 16, 2003 10:50AM

Don't even sweat your results - just chalk it up to a bad day at the
"slab casino"

And, yes - it happens all the time - EVEN TO THE VERY BEST AND BRIGHTEST WORLD CLASS GRADERS.

Wondercoin

jcping · October 16, 2003 1:10PM

It is so easy to grade Ike dollar. I mean with PCGS standard. If you think it is MS6x, then mark it MS6(x-1). This will be the best grade PCGS will assign these days.

itsnotjustme · October 16, 2003 1:33PM

I sense your pain...

...and I worry about feeling your pain. I have a modern submission including three Ikes at PCGS now.

Typetone · October 16, 2003 1:49PM

Jim:

Shoot me the prices on your PKOKs. Never know, I might want to pick one up.

Greg

MoneyLA · October 16, 2003 5:43PM

Wondercoin wrote:

"Don't even sweat your results - just chalk it up to a bad day at the
"slab casino" "

As Ronald Reagan would say-- "there you go again, Mitch."

As Ive said before, submitting coins to PCGS should NOT be a roll of the dice in a slab casino, but it should be the purchase of an accurate grade based on standards.

The fact that a previously slabbed ms63 Ike would come back as an AU58 is just the kind of evidence of a severe problem with pcgs grading.

And more examples of coins coming back downgraded a second time is a preponderance of evidence of the problem.

And this is a serious problem-- costly to collectors.

And PCGS should also be concerned because it challenges its reputation for accurate grading.

Ive said my piece. Peace.

Cheers, alan mendelson

Steve27 · October 16, 2003 8:30PM

Will you go the crack-out resubmit route?

misterR · October 16, 2003 9:22PM

One or two grades lower on all the business strike Ikes I've submitted for the last year and a half or two years. (And I have been submitting them for over ten years, I do know what I am talking about). Yes, there is a problem. When I send coins to "the other guys" I receive the grades I expect.

CoinHusker · October 16, 2003 10:13PM

I'm just a newbie but doesn't this apparent trend at PCGs hurt them as much as collectors? I mean really, who is going to re-submit to them if they know their modern is going to come back -2 or -3 grades? I realize it's not suposed to be about the plastic but about the coin, but in today's market (or any market for that matter) the plastic should match the coin. Isn't that what slabbing was supposed to be all about?

CarlWohlforth · October 16, 2003 10:32PM

I'm sorry to hear about those results.

I just sent in an what I felt is an overgraded proof Lincoln, perhaps my timing is good?

cointime · October 16, 2003 10:56PM

James,
I know what you mean..........To get an MS66 IKE, it must be super duper! I think the new modern grader is tough on clad toning. The same toning on a pre 1965 is ok

LINE # CERT # COIN DATE DENOMINATION VARIETY GRADE
1 21339254 2003-P 1C MS68RD
1 21339255 2003-P 1C MS67RD
2 21339256 2003-D 1C MS68RD
3 21339257 2003-P 5C MS64FS
3 21339258 2003-P 5C MS66FS
4 21339259 1973 10C MS64
5 21339260 1977 10C MS64
6 21339261 1988-P 10C MS64
7 21339262 1998-D 10C MS67
8 21339263 2001-D 10C MS64FB
9 21339264 2003-P IL 25C Illinois MS65
10 21339265 2003-P ME 25C Maine MS67
11 21339266 2003-P AR 25C Arkansas MS64
12 21339267 2003-D AR 25C Arkansas MS66
13 21339268 2003-D MO 25C Missouri MS67
14 21339269 1976-S 50C Silver MS67
15 21339270 2003-P SAC $1 MS67
16 21339271 1971 $1 MS62
16 21339272 1971 $1 AU58
16 21339273 1971 $1 MS62
17 21339274 1972 $1 Type 1 MS61
17 21339275 1972 $1 Type 1 MS62
17 21339276 1972 $1 Type 1 MS62
18 21339277 1974 $1 MS62
19 21339278 1976-D $1 Type 1 MS63
20 21339279 1977 $1 MS64
21 21339280 1976-D $1 Type 2 MS66
22 21339281 1976 $1 Type 2 MS66
22 21339282 1976 $1 Type 2 MS64
22 21339283 1976 $1 Type 2 MS64
23 21339284 2003-P 10C MS65
24 21339285 2003-D 10C MS67FB

Date Received: 08/25/2003
Date Shipped: 09/18/2003

bushmaster8 · October 17, 2003 11:19AM

It IS a crapshoot!...unfortunate but true

James- Did you crack these and resubmit? or send under the regrade tier??

segoja · October 17, 2003 12:27PM

All cracked out.

I never resubmit in a PCGS holder.

They won't admit mistakes in thier own holders.

Crossovers from different services excepted.

All depends on the downside of a coin. If the downside is too great, I send for cross. If I'm 110% confident with littel downside risk, crack out!

moosesr · October 17, 2003 2:30PM

That is unbelievable

I thought I had a bad experience when I submitted 10 cracked out PCGS 1972 MS64 Ikes and received 3 MS63's and the rest MS64's.

Charlie

khayse · October 17, 2003 11:09PM

Jim,

I'd like to hear the prices on those PKOKs also.

Thanks,
-Keith

jcping · October 18, 2003 12:07AM

James,

Since so many folks are interested in the PKOK Ikes, could you post the pictures here

poptopsRus · October 18, 2003 1:27AM

It seems like it's been about 50 50 lately. Half the time I get what I expect and the other half of the time the whole submission comes out lower than expected. I think it's just who's hands they end up in and who is having a bad day. It happens.

USMC_6115 · October 18, 2003 1:29AM

What does "PKOK" stand for?

cupronik · October 18, 2003 3:33AM

Hello James:

That was one heck of a risk to crack-out high-grade Ikes from PCGS
holders and then resubmit the coins raw back to PCGS. PCGS has
been VERY TOUGH on Ike dollars for the past 1-2 years. I search
through 100's of mint sets and send in the best singles after close
scrutiny and still receive boxes of mostly MS-64 coins. Having known
this for quite sometime now I wouldn't chance cracking out MS-65's
in hopes of receiving higher grades. The only crack-outs I might try
were top-grade MS-64 71-P, 72-P,& 76-P T-1; one would only be risk-
ing the modern fee again.

I believe many of the older PCGS-graded MS-65 Ikes would come back in
MS-64 holders today due to the opinion of the current modern coin
grader(s). I think the current modern grader(s) is/are too technical
in the grade assessment of Ike Dollars. What constitues an MS-65
1974-P Ike for example since most have bland luster and some light
chatter? What about the coins encapsulated as MS-65 in the past?
Can't one predict future received grades based on previous results
(obvious grading mistakes aside)??

I understand your frustration since I've experienced it time & again
regarding mint state cupro-nickel clad Ikes. I don't know if talking to
a significant PCGS figure would bring the any meaningful change to
the situation. I will pose this question though, "How long have the
CURRENT modern coin graders at PCGS been grading mint state clad
Ike Dollars?"

Hang in there, James, and just be "more certain" the next time; I try
to.

Cupronik.

moosesr · October 18, 2003 4:34AM

I heard or read somewhere that if you submit a PCGS coin for regrade it is cracked out by PCGS before the coin is sent to the graders so they don't know it is a regrade. If they actually do this why would you crack a coin out of the PCGS holder for grading instead of using the regrade process?

Charlie

jcping · October 18, 2003 8:19AM

> if you submit a PCGS coin for regrade it is cracked out by PCGS before the coin is sent to the graders so they don't know it is a regrade.

Many folks have serious doubt about this statement. If we all believe it, no one will crack out.

CoinHusker · October 22, 2003 2:35AM

Congratulations James!

I knew if you tried hard enough you could finally do it!

moosesr · October 23, 2003 2:42AM

I just got the results of my latest attempt to get some of my best PCGS Ikes upgraded by PCGS.

I picked out the best of my 1972 coins so I could get the type shown on the holder and my other Ikes that I thought might upgrade. I sent them all in for regrade and none of the grades changed! I tried this once before by cracking out the coins and had about 25% downgrade and none upgrade. I think I will give up on trying to get upgrades on my coins.

I sure am glad I didn't crack these out like you did or I probably wouldn't have had any MS65 Ikes in the group.

Charlie

For some reason I don't have any luck getting a link to work, so here is the submission number.

Submission No: 3113007.

jcping · October 23, 2003 2:49AM

They are extremely tight for Ike dollar grading now. I see the grading standards change back to early 90s standards. Personally, I am glad to see this happen. Most high grade Ike dollars graded between 1997 and 1999 will be one to two grades down if you crack them out.

For many Proof Ike dollars graded before 1992, you still could re-grade them and get one to three point higher.

Made my First AU Ike - Invoice totally hammered

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