PCGS Guarantee with regards to Pedigree
Shamika
Posts: 18,785 ✭✭✭✭
Recently, there was a big stink regarding whether or not a particular Norweb coin had been correctly identified. I’m sure we all remember it. As a result, I began to wonder how PCGS could guarantee a coins provenance (aka pedigree).
When questioning a coins authenticity or grade, the coin can be resubmitted to PCGS and reevaluated. This is not a problem since authenticity and grade always travel with the coin.
However, if one questions the provenance, how does PCGS confirm this? Does PCGS keep a file on all coins that have a provenance attached to them? There must be a paper trail of some kind or else the guarantee is meaningless.
I will probably post this to the Q/A board for HomeRunHall to answer, but I first wanted some feedback from the forum members.
When questioning a coins authenticity or grade, the coin can be resubmitted to PCGS and reevaluated. This is not a problem since authenticity and grade always travel with the coin.
However, if one questions the provenance, how does PCGS confirm this? Does PCGS keep a file on all coins that have a provenance attached to them? There must be a paper trail of some kind or else the guarantee is meaningless.
I will probably post this to the Q/A board for HomeRunHall to answer, but I first wanted some feedback from the forum members.
Buyer and seller of vintage coin boards!
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Comments
When you hold your self/company out as a leading expert in a field that requires specialized knowledge and training, every action you undertake is to be performed with due diligence and care. Failure to do so would be what we in the legal world call -- negligence.
So, in regards to Pedigrees, PCGS should research each Pedigree before putting it on the label.
This also applies to what PCGS calls "mechanical errors." A "mechanical error" which causes a loss of monetary value would also be consider negligence and actionable.
I doubt if Mr. Hall will answer your question though, with the whole Jadecoin issue so fresh.
Michael
<< <i>This doesn't really answer your question, but according to case law, in the State of California, everything PCGS does is guaranted, whether they want to admit to it or not.
When you hold your self/company out as a leading expert in a field that requires specialized knowledge and training, every action you undertake is to be performed with due diligence and care. Failure to do so would be what we in the legal world call -- negligence.
So, in regards to Pedigrees, PCGS should research each Pedigree before putting it on the label.
This also applies to what PCGS calls "mechanical errors." A "mechanical error" which causes a loss of monetary value would also be consider negligence and actionable.
I doubt if Mr. Hall will answer your question though, with the whole Jadecoin issue so fresh.
Michael >>
Once again resides with Legend, the original purchaser "raw" at live Eliasberg auction. Laura and i "love" the same lady!
<< <i>hehehe Michael,......only it's tough to collect on a "guarentee" the issuer won't acknowledge!... >>
That it is, but a well funded and persistent person/company could.
michael
notice that they don't guarantee ACCURATE grading, but CONSISTENT grading.
never seen anywhere in their ads where they guarantee anything else, including pedigrees.
K S
K S
It may come down to having a record of the diagnostics of the legitimate coin and matching that record to the coin in question to reach a level of certainty that the grading service is willing to pronounce and guarantee the said coin is XXX provenance. If it's a very rare coin like the 1913 Liberty Nickel where only five and a coin surface claiming to be one of the five the experts examine the coin to determine if it has the right charteristics. If the coin isn't an extreme rarity it may take a combination of diagnostics and auction/purchasing records to backtrack and verify provenance.
<< <i>on a side note, did we ever get a satsifactory explanation as to why the jade boys got banned?
K S >>
It still say's to be continued on their web site.
<< <i><<on a side note, did we ever get a satsifactory explanation as to why the jade boys got banned?>>
It still say's to be continued on their web site. >>
looks to me like they added a .pdf file to their website. 1 thing i notice is that they reference several attachments, but i don't see the attachments. still a work in progress???
btw, not much activity on ngc's site either. i'd of expected 'em to take advantage of the opportunity to slam pcgs.
K S
This is a problem when there are no published photographs of the coin in question.
Keep in mind that the Benson Collection had many rolls of coins that were certified. Are there any published photographs of these coins? I would guess not!
The JadeCoin issue could fall under this very scenario. There were many unplated Norweb coins of which the JadeCoin piece could be one. Without the paper trail, how does PCGS prove it after being slabbed?
<< <i>Without the paper trail, how does PCGS prove it after being slabbed? >>
That's probably why PCGS removed the pedigree, it couldn't find evidence conclusively proving that it was a Norweb coin.
Michael
<< <i>The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. >>
You label it a Norweb, you guarantee that authenticity.
You assign points to being a Norweb for your registry set, you admit and understanding of increased intrinsic value and you're assigning a number to it.
You take the label away, and you are now obligated to fulfill your promise to compensate the owner for the price differential.
There's nothing hidden in this picture.
<< <i><< The Guarantee of Grade & Authenticity is fundamental to PCGS's concept of third-party grading. >> You label it a Norweb, you guarantee that authenticity. >>
i'm sure that means the COIN is "authentic", not any auxiliary comments. ie. they don't guarantee the "authenticity" of the "serial no.", do they? ie in the case of the jade boys, pcgs guaranteed that the coin was a genuine woods hibernia, not that it was a genuine norweb coin.
btw, looks like they changed their website, lots more info on it now. maybe the jade boys are still lurking on the pcgs forum.... naaaah, couldn't be.
K S
Answer
I'm still confused as to how PCGS would be able to prove scenario #2 as could have been the case with regards to the Jadecoin situation.
Now granted with scenerio #2, PCGS is taking the word so to speak of the auction house, and that the flip hasn't be manufactured after the fact or that the flip wasn't opened and then resealed. Granted #2 does provide the opportunity for someone to try trick PCGS, but it appears that Hall's fairly confident that wouldn't happen.
And as for the Jadecoin, it probably didn't meet any of the criteria listed and that's why PCGS removed the pedigree.
The only real issue is whether PCGS should buy the back the coin and their mistake.
Michael
If PCGS did accept NGC's pedigree and it turned out to be misattributed, I would still aruge PCGS is at fault and PCGS could then in turn try to seek reimbursement from NGC, but that isn't likely going to happen. Basically they pedigree coins at the own risk.
As for the Jadecoin issue, I don't think this necessarily applies to their situation.
Michael
If PCGS does not recognize it's own pedigree, wouldn't that give less value to a PCGS pedigree coin?
I can think of a dozen reasons not to have high capacity magazines, but it's the reasons I haven't thought about that I need them.
Quick someone call Jadecoin!
I think this applies only on a whim.
Lesson learned....do the research yourself and don't pay premiums for pedigrees!