PCGS coins in the NGC Registry. A Ratio thats unbalanced.

Fairlaneman · October 12, 2003 1:27AM

I was just a little curious about the ratio of PCGS graded coins versus the NGC coins that are entered in the NGC registry. I guess the curiousity was attained from the time to time threads that get all over PCGS for only letting thier product into these registries here.

Well here is what I found across the street in the Top 10 NGC Merc Dime sets.

The Top 5 sets had a total of 12 NGC graded coins registered. Hmmm, not a very good ratio at all. These top 5 guys must be Plastic buyers.

The number 6 through number 10 sets had a total of 109 NGC graded coins registered. Much better ration but 105 of these were in 3 of the sets.

Both products are real decent, PCGS and NGC, with great coins in both but it still looks to me that PCGS has the upper hand as far as collectors are concerned. In five or so years it would be interesting to see if this ratio still holds up. With the findings across the street I believe PCGS is correct by only letting thier product into the registry, Merc Dime wise anyway.

Comments anyone ?

Ken

fcloud · October 12, 2003 2:04AM

Good observasions.

Is it possible that the fact NGC allows PCGS coins into the registered sets, that in turn keeps NCG collectors out of the PCGS sets?

I have my sets listed in both, as do you. I think I'm number 10 at NCG, and I think I have a either one or two listed at NGC, the balance of my set is PCGS.

If PCGS allowed both, you would see the tops sets in both with the same coins. I almost wish NGC only allowed NGC coins. I said "almost."

Stooge · October 12, 2003 4:45AM

Good observation fairlaneman. I think that NGC has a good product, but I do prefer PCGS.

I have a good friend named Rob and he collects NGC coins probably more then PCGS, but when it came time to purchase his 2 key Washington Silver quarters (32-D/S), he was only looking for PCGS. He said that they will have a better re-sale value if and when that time comes.

Paul.

FrattLaw · October 12, 2003 6:00AM

I'm not sure what your seeing is an accurate portrait of what is actually occuring.

Could it possibly be that the PCGS top set owners want to be top set owners in the NGC registry as well? And basically they have just registered their sets across the street?

I wouldn't be surprised if NGC at some point places a requirement that the set be at least 51% comprised of NGC slabbed coins. It will force those PCGS only set owners to either buy additional coins, or remove their sets from competition.

Most of the coins I'm seeing at shows are in NGC slabs now.

Michael

Fairlaneman · October 12, 2003 8:23AM

The top 5 sets that are at NGC are sets that are registered at PCGS also. That is why I went past those sets to see if some of the folks were actually buying and putting NGC sets together. Three of the next five sets actually were pretty much NGC graded coins but were only somewhere around 50% complete. After the 2+ years the NGC registry has been around I thought the participation would be much better. Maybe the answer is that many folks like NGC coins but they are not of the type that puts complete sets together.

Ken

Fairlaneman · October 12, 2003 9:40AM

MANOFCOINS....the point is taken. I certainly will not touch it with a ten foot pole though. I am trying to be none bias and just get some input as to why there are so few NGC coins registered in thier registry. Merc Dimes anyway.

Another thought just hit. If PCGS did open up to NGC graded coins do you think the ratio here would be more even or just stay un-balanced as it is over there ?

Ken

haletj · October 12, 2003 1:58PM

I have one ngc Merc Dime, an ms66 35-s. The coin has a scratch and other problems. One dealer didn't think it should be higher than ms63. Several dealers have told me ngc is the worst at Mercury Dimes.

mozeppa · October 12, 2003 2:09PM

I LISTED MY TOTALLY

pcgs lincoln proof set over there just to stir them up ....no other reason

it may still be number 1 there (aint checked in a while)

my set over here don't rate that high ....but that don't bother me either...just thought it would be fun.

Typetone · October 12, 2003 2:58PM

I think NGC coins should be allowed in the PCGS registry with a one point discount. Then it would be interesting to see how many NGC coins get in.

Greg

DAM · October 12, 2003 10:32PM

<< I think NGC coins should be allowed in the PCGS registry with a one point discount. Then it would be interesting to see how many NGC coins get in.

Greg >>

Does that mean a PCGS coins should receive a one point bonus in the NGC registry?

Steve27 · October 13, 2003 2:15AM

Good observations, but a bad conclusion. If PGCS allowed NGC coins into their registry, then you would probably see a more even mix. This is the reason why PCGS will not permit NGC coins into the PCGS registry, NOT why they shouldn't be allowed.

mozeppa · October 13, 2003 12:46PM

<< I think NGC coins should be allowed in the PCGS registry with a one point discount. Then it would be interesting to see how many NGC coins get in.

Greg >>

that would never do...

all the top spots would be filled with ngc coins....

Android · October 13, 2003 1:57PM

<< Several dealers have told me ngc is the worst at Mercury Dimes. >>

I don't know... This one is pretty nice.

NGC MS67 FB

remumc · October 13, 2003 3:17PM

Android,

That is indeed a nice dime! Do you think it would cross to PCGS? I think yours probably would from what I can see, but most won't and we both know it.

Here is the deal IMHO. I don't know about other series, but in the Mercury dimes, PCGS coins bring/cost a decided premium over NGC coins in the same grade, sometimes by as much as 30-50%. Check any dealers website for verification. The sets with only, or predominately, PCGS coins cost much more to put together. So seems to me the guys, myself included, who register their PCGS collections on the NGC site are at a distinct monetary disadvantage to the guys listing only or predominately NGC coins. So then why are the top five sets almost exclusively PCGS? Because plastic or not, the PCGS coins are considered better, and I think the better coins get submitted to PCGS and are not as available in NGC slabs. I said considered, but of the NGC dimes that I have tried to cross, or have cracked and submitted, very few upgrade. The nice thing is that when one does, it is usually a nice lick and will pay for lots of misses! It is my opinion that PCGS should not, and will never, allow NGC coins on their registry.

OK, my rambling is over for tonight!

Regards,

Wayne

Android · October 14, 2003 10:55AM

<< So then why are the top five sets almost exclusively PCGS? Because plastic or not, the PCGS coins are considered better, and I think the better coins get submitted to PCGS and are not as available in NGC slabs. >>

The top five sets in the NGC registry are all PCGS because they CAN be there. I hope you realize that if the same sets were all NGC graded coins with the same grades, they'd still be the top five. Or perhaps these top five sets were put there for the following reason:

<< LISTED MY TOTALLY
pcgs lincoln proof set over there just to stir them up ....no other reason >>

Isn't that special.....

mozeppa · October 14, 2003 12:03PM

>>

Isn't that special.....

>>

aw .... i made

mad....big deal

IrishMike · October 14, 2003 12:12PM

Android I suspect the set was put there to make the collector feel good and not to shake anyone up, it would hardly do that. Once you understand that then you understand why some folks collect and are prone to making stupid statements. Mention the word NGC in here, now that will shake some folks up.

mozeppa · October 14, 2003 12:18PM

ah! another Mike ...welcome

you on 100%

if people are swimming in the N.G. SEA (C) ....

they should take the friendly competition that goes along with the territory....

is it just me.....or are all mike's geniuses?

as i early on stated....my set isn't nearly a "top" set by any imagination stretch!

by the way it wasn't such a "stupid" statement...shook him a little didn't it?

real nice dime tho!

remumc · October 14, 2003 1:09PM

Mozeppa,

"that would never do...

all the top spots would be filled with ngc coins.... "

How can you figure that when the top sets in both registries are 100% PCGS coins? How could NGC coins ever hope to fill the top spots in the PCGS registry with a one point discount? Just goes to show that those people that are trying to collect the best possible Mercury dimes are buying them in PCGS slabs because that is where the best Mercury dimes are!

So how many people are trying to cross PCGS coins to NGC? About 5% of those that are trying the other way?

Android,

"The top five sets in the NGC registry are all PCGS because they CAN be there. I hope you realize that if the same sets were all NGC graded coins with the same grades, they'd still be the top five."

Yes, an NGC set "COULD" be in the top five of their registry if someone would buy the coins and register them! But no one has! Why?" ...and it makes me wonder..."

Regards,

Wayne

mozeppa · October 14, 2003 1:59PM

my only thought was..... that say in my case ,

pcgs recognizes approx 30 proof 70 lincoln cents (i haven't added them up lately ) from 30 different years.

ngc gives the designation "70" away a lot more frequently and in years that pcgs hasn't graded a 70...

that means to beat anyone out in the points all they'd have to do is jump the fence! and suddenly we'd have a new registry leader.
(with ngc slabs in the spots that no pcgs coin has been made in)

now if that'd be the case for lincolns...could and would it happen all across the board? did i miss something here?

correct me if i'm wrong...but i think what what we would see if we examined joe blow's set.... is a bunch of ngc stuff littered thoughout
his set ...in 70 grades where pcgs would re-grade them as 67 ...68 or 69 (assumming that they would even cross.)

i for one am o-k with keeping ngc out of our registry program...i look at my 70 proofs under a 45 power microscope and really they
do look a lot better than any ngc proof 70 i've seen!

i didn't know that there was a 1 point discount for anything...tell me more

remumc · October 14, 2003 2:25PM

Mozeppa,

I only collect Mercs, and there are no 70's from either service, and danged few 69's or 68's, so we may be comparing apples to oranges here, and your situation would not compare. The result in Lincoln proofs could be dramatically different from the result in Mercs, which is what this thread was based upon.

The flaw in your logic, is a NGC 70, although it may only cross as a 67/68/69 to PCGS, will usually cost as much or more than a PCGS 69 coin. So where is the incentive? Any PCGS registry set owner wouldn't even try to cross it. Why? Because it is a money losing proposition.

It all boils down to value. As I stated before, at least in the Mercs, check out some of the dealer websites. PCGS coins bring more money grade for grade. If the NGC coins would cross, the dealers would cross them and make more money. They know that they won't, and price them accordingly

And again I ask, how many perple do you know that are trying to cross PCGS coins to NGC? I would bet PCGS has 100 crossover submissions for every 5 that NGC has, and that is not counting the crack-outs!

Regards,

Wayne

Fairlaneman · October 14, 2003 8:21PM

Maybe the original post I made in the thread was not correct. The intent was to ask why people, so it seems, do not put together NGC complete sets of Merc dimes.

Grade wise there is a difference and cost wise there is a difference. With this said it still seems strange that basically people do not jump in and acquire the NGC graded coins. In my opinion a very nice set of Mercs could be put together if they were all NGC graded. Sure they might not be up to the standard of a PCGS set but the reason for this is that the two services grade these coins at different standards. If both services graded the coins at the same standard then the pricing and the perceived difference between the coins in a given grade would be a subject for debate. Actually its a mute point now.

Merc dimes is one of the series that shows a grading standard difference between the two top services. When a person looks at a PCGS or NGC graded Merc I think the thought process should be does this coin match the standard for the given service and not a thought process that pits the grading service against the other service.

Possibly the three people that are in the number six, seven and eight slots at NGC are attempting to put NGC graded sets together but just need a little more time to work on thier sets. Time will tell what thier intentions will be.

Ken

lincolnSence · October 15, 2003 6:42AM

I can make a few claims in the lincoln sets (non-proof). I registered my sets to see my name in "lights" somewhere. While I wait to finish my PCGS set, it gave me something to do. I have about 90% of my coins in PCGS holders. The last 10% were in NGC holders as that is what the crook sold me when I first entered the market. Bottom line, as I always say when this topic comes up, DON"T BUY NGC LINCOLN CENTS !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! THey turn in the holders, fingerprint etc. They are at least a full point below PCGS on all grades above 65. The resale value is garbage, and I might add getting worse. Their registry lacks the follow through that PCGS has put into its registry, like top sets of all time, awards etc. Face it, NGC doesn't go the extra mile because they don't care about anything other than slabbing coins. They are a second tier firm. I don't know if its the same in other series, but my recommendation in lincolns is to stay far away. I will say one positive thing about NGC. I think they put more effort into how the individual coins are scored. PCGS should adopt their method.

jcping · October 15, 2003 8:12AM

> With this said it still seems strange that basically people do not jump in and acquire the NGC graded coins.
> In my opinion a very nice set of Mercs could be put together if they were all NGC graded.

Most nice high grade NGC coins find a way to go into PCGS holders.
High grade NGC coins are slow movers so that most dealers prefer not to stock them unless cost is very low.

marcmoish · October 15, 2003 8:52AM

A few weeks ago I visited a show in NJ to find some nice Merc's. Once again most of the dealers that had anything to talk about were all in NGC plastic. Those I looked at were totally off grade-wise besides evrything else. So although I was frustrated that I could find very little PCGS merc's I was content to know and reconfirm that generally Merc's in PCGS plastic are tougher to find and harder to get.

Besides everything else I like about them (and the usual few things I don't.....) - I really like that most!

Marc

remumc · October 15, 2003 2:30PM

Hello guys,

Well, there sure are a lot of opinions on this topic, and I'm glad to hear some really in depth discussion on this. My real bottom line....on Mercs at least, I would much rather buy an ANACS coin and try to cross it to PCGS than a NGC, grade for grade. I figure if I buy a NGC Merc, I have to buy at least one grade higher than what I want it to cross to, even when it looks like a solid graded coin. I think PCGS just automaticaly gives NGC a one point discount on most Merc crossovers. Remember. were talking Mercs here. Oh, BTW, buy the coin and not the plastic, and that is what I try to do. I have a couple in now at PCGS, not crossovers, but crackouts from NGC slabs. I would never submit a NGC graded Merc for crossover, I will crack them every time! I'll report back on the results. I hear all kinds of reports about guys crossing Morgans, but you don't hear many bragging obout this on Mercs.

Does anyone ever recall anyone across the street bragging about crossing PCGS slabs to NGC?

Regards,

Wayne

FrattLaw · October 16, 2003 5:12AM

I've taken several toned Peace $ out of PCGS plastic in favor of NGC holders. I prefer the white holder for toned coins as opposed to the clear plastic. I also think NGC is far more consistent in their standards then PCGS. As for the cross, a couple were down graded by 1 point by NGC. None where ever upgraded. I don't know Mercs so I have no idea as to the previous posts, but PCGS upgrades many toned Peace $ by 1 point for color, whereas NGC grades more technically and then uses the * for eye appeal. Which I believe is a better system. If the coin is a 64 it's a 64 not a 65 because it has nice eye appeal.

I don't really care about the downgrades since I don't plan on selling these coins and for the most part I would rather have a strong 65 coin in a NGC 65 holder then a weak 66 in a PCGS 66 plastic.

Michael

wondercoin · October 16, 2003 5:52AM

Fratt: Hope you are felling better.

"since I don't plan on selling these coins"

Strange - if you feel this way, why CROSS any coins? Just crack them and enjoy them in safeflips (which I do all the time) - you can hold them between your figures and enjoy them in all their "raw" glory - the way the "old-timers" enjoyed their coins. Why in the world would you spend bucks crossing these coins? I'm confused

Wondercoin

ThatImpalaDude · October 16, 2003 7:25AM

After reading this thread, I decided to list my Walker Short Set (#2 current in pcgs Registry) on the NGC registry. The coins are all PCGS. It ends up #1 on the NGC Registry. If the NGC Walker collectors knew where I lived, would they take out a "hit" on me?<g>

Steve
ImpalaSteve's Walker Short Set #2 Current;#3 All-time
As of today, the #1 NGC Short Set. WOW

IrishMike · October 16, 2003 7:51AM

<<

After reading this thread, I decided to list my Walker Short Set (#2 current in pcgs Registry) on the NGC registry. The coins are all PCGS. It ends up #1 on the NGC Registry. If the NGC Walker collectors knew where I lived, would they take out a "hit" on me?<g>

Steve
ImpalaSteve's Walker Short Set #2 Current;#3 All-time
As of today, the #1 NGC Short Set. WOW >>

Steve, is a great Walker any less great because of what slab it's in or what registry you have it listed? I think the folks across the street would enjoy your coins.

Steve · October 16, 2003 8:36AM

Just to "have fun too", I've joined Mike Lumpkin in registering my complete all PCGS 1909-2003 Lincoln proof set across the street. Set is #3 behind Mike and Roger but they only gave me 3 points for my 1909VDB. Apparently, Dave Lange will check on it next week. Is this the only way to battle Stewart? Answer is YES.

Really, this is all fun for me. Love the competition BUT completion is the name of the game. Steve

FrattLaw · October 16, 2003 10:41PM

<< Strange - if you feel this way, why CROSS any coins? Just crack them and enjoy them in safeflips (which I do all the time) - you can hold them between your figures and enjoy them in all their "raw" glory - the way the "old-timers" enjoyed their coins. Why in the world would you spend bucks crossing these coins? I'm confused >>

Wondercoin -- I struggle with this thought constantly. I love albums and album collecting. I have numerous Wayte Raymond albums and Dansco albums I am assembling. I like the Dansco for the modern coins -- Ike, SBA, Jefferson, Kennedy, Lincolns, ASE, & Type Set. I also have a completely toned BU Roosie set in a Library of Coins album, much like the Goldberg Wayte Raymond album you bought. I also have a Wayte Raymond album for Roosies and Peace $ that are beginning to tone quite nicely. I also have a modern commem set in a Wayte Raymond album that is beginning to tone. And I think I am going to try to assemble over the course of my life a Wayte Raymond Type Set with coins all cracked out of slabs. Perhaps adding 1-2 coins per year in the highest possible grade I can afford.

As for my toned Peace $ set, I could crack them and put them into nice white Capitol Plastic holders like GSAGUY does with his Morgans. I think that would look beautiful. I don't know I just like knowing that they are protected by the slab and I like to have them listed in the Registry set. As I stated earlier the reason why I choose NGC as my preference for these particular coins was that I like the white background of the NGC holder. I think it illustrates the toning and enhances the color much more then PCGS clear blueish plastic. Not everything I do always make sense, just ask my wife.

Michael

EVillageProwler · October 18, 2003 12:10AM

This is getting OT from the original thread post, but I've since stopped caring too much about the slab, or even about the slabbed grade, for the coins that end up in my metaphorical "box of 20" set. I've pretty much trained my eye to ignore the slab when I'm viewing the coins. Of the few times I put 'em on display, I will use a white background as most of my coins have some color.

Then, I also have albumsful of coins representing many different series: Ikes, Frankies, Roosies, Mercs, Walkers, Lincolns, Trickels, 2-centers, Jeffs, US Type, foreign. Many are circs too. I used to give away late date high-grade circ Walkers as gifts. I gave as a gift a raw PL Morgan once. It was probably a 63PL...

And, I have the ultimate "display" of the collector: lots of containers of mostly unsorted coins (older US, foreign) and currency (* notes, defunct countries, etc.).

TPGS? Who needs 'em? The plastic just gets in the way of a good clutter!

EVP

mintluster · October 19, 2003 10:47AM

I never knew NGC would count PCGS graded coins in their set registry program. That seems weird.

DMWJR · October 20, 2003 4:42AM

If NGC didn't allow PCGS coins, there would be no NGC registry, plain and simple.

Steve · October 20, 2003 5:34AM

In some ways it just doesn't seem right that I now own the #1 Lincoln Cent Proof Set (1909-2003) in the NGC Registry. I won't be there long if Mike Lumpkin and Roger check it, but I'm there just for fun. It is the only NGC set registry I will enter and every coin is in a PCGS holder. They really do need to make some kind of rule that requires at least 50% of the coins to be in their holders. JMHO. Steve

erwindoc · September 16, 2010 10:37PM

I prefer the registry across the street because it allows both major grading companies. I have a decent mix of both coins in my registry sets. Not all the best coins are in PCGS plastic. There are some legitimate coins in NGC holders. It doesnt make sense to try and get them all graded by one company except by people that compete here only. In fact, most of the sets I compete in have big players at both locations. It is fun to see where you stack up against the best from both services!

grip · September 17, 2010 2:29AM

Seven years have past,and nothing has changed

llafoe · September 17, 2010 10:27AM

The NGC registry makes no sense to me. You can literally have 50% of the coins (10), all graded MS68, and another person can have 100% of the coins (20), all graded MS67, and be second to the person with 10 less coins... that makes NO sense!

keyman64 · September 17, 2010 12:29PM

Wow...someone found an old thread. I had noticed that the top merc sets had all PCGS coins in it as well....when I was looking around a few months ago. I found it very interesting. If I was NGC I would feel insulted by that and change the rules to at least 51%...if not more....but that is if I were NGC...it is called standing by your product. Since I am NOT NGC....I am just a collector....it tells me that I need to only have PCGS coins because they are accepted everywhere.

It is like Visa/MasterCard being accepted everywhere and AMEX only being accepted in some places. If I am going to have one card, why the hell would I have an AMEX? Same thing goes in this situation.

I am just a new guy and have only attempted to cross one NGC coin so far and it crossed to the same grade so I was happy. I have read my thany threads in the past few months where coins will often times cross at a lower grade to PCGS from NGC.

Greg

DIMEMAN · September 17, 2010 12:42PM

You can me a Cool Aid drinker if you want, but every coin (dime) I buy that is not PCGS goes to PCGS. I buy the Mercs in NGC one point lower because that is what the usually are. If I feel they really are the grade I will pay close to PCGS money. That doesn't happen often. As far as NGC Registry.....never go there....never compete there. No reason to.

DMWJR · September 17, 2010 1:50PM

<< Seven years have past,and nothing has changed

>>

ambro51 · September 17, 2010 8:55PM

I dont buy the holder, I buy the coin. Some are pcgs, some are ngc...a few are anacs and ive even got a ICG. Ohhh and a few Raw

crossing has just been grief to me..at least the ngc registry is more open...but in the long run I went independent.

www.golddollarcollection.com

Griv · September 19, 2010 1:12AM

I have had a bunch of NGC and ANACS graded coins not cross lately and these have been mostly Morgans and early Jeffersons. I was always under the impression NGC did a good good on the Morgans and semi-old coins like the pre-65 Jeffersons. I know one or two will definitely cross so I'll have to crack them out. What's up?

I hate it when the bullion coins come out (well, actually after I get mine), and what was really fast grade turn around has ground to a trickle. I've got 12 submissions in the queue with the oldest from August 3rd.

Waltz · September 20, 2010 1:56PM

My oh my....where to begin.

First, I concur completely with the Lincoln set matter within the NGC Registry - and then some. The Indian proof set is worse. I'm #4 at PCGS, and #2 and NGC. Their #1 is Numismatist (I know his collection is broken up in the hands of others and has been for YEARS...his 1864 CN DCAM in Proof 65 is up at Heritage this week). Spare me...but I AM the highest bidder at the moment on it. We'll see what NGC does if I get it.

One area I've been watching where NGC may have the advantage is proof seated liberties - all denoms. It appears that they have some awesome high grades - but again hard to say without them in hand.

coolkarma · September 20, 2010 4:43PM

<< I dont buy the holder, I buy the coin. >>

Bingo!

<< but in the long run I went independent.

www.golddollarcollection.com >>

Very nice web site!

Enjoy!

ColonelJessup · September 25, 2010 6:30AM

If your main goal is to build a set that others value and respect as you do, choose your criteria: raw points or coins you like. If you love what you're buying more than the points, you'd rather have the same grade NGC coin than the PCGS coin that doesn't measure up.

When knowledgeable collectors look at each other's coins, they may discuss cross-over problems, but they spend a lot more time smiling and talking about what they like. A little "..... if that teeny mark was hidden in the hair, it would be a 66" or "This obv. DCAM is so cool, wish the rev looked as good as the front. I never see them full out both sides. What about you? "

Ask TDN how much he cares about "points poker". If I understood him correctly in a recent post, he was holding a set back because someone else's set was so great he wanted it to shine in a place where everyone KNEW they had to look. These guys love each other's coins. As my Nana used to say: "Points. Schmoints".

scottgardener · October 15, 2010 7:01AM

At coin shows these days, it seems that any given dealer will usually have either nearly all PCGS or all NGC coins. They will often have a smattering of the other or ANACS and ICG, but most dealers are either PCGS-heavy or NGC-heavy. The NGC camp seems to be larger. However, it seems all the Morgan dollar guys or Walking Liberty people seem to like PCGS. Most of the people who dabble in gold and have just a few coins have NGC-graded ones. There are two regulars in my show circuit area who have really astonishing and sizable gold inventories that are PCGS-graded. There's another one or two major local vendors whom I sometimes see, and their inventory is more mixed.

My collection is pretty PCGS-heavy, but I've got a smattering of NGC coins, so I welcome the ability to track them in my inventory at the Set Registry, even if they don't show up in the sets themselves.