Have we lost our minds?

Stooge

As a Roosevelt collector, I would like to see my fellow collectors complete an outstanding collection of top notch Roosevelt dimes, because I do know how difficult and rewarding that this can be...but in this process, I just want to say that some of us have lost our minds!

Right now on eBay, there is a beautiful 1990-D MS67FB pop (1/0) for sale with an opening bid of $395.00. This made my mouth drop, but of course, I put it on my watch page. NOW it has 5 bids and is currently going for $635.00. Once again have we lost our minds? I bought a 1990-D MS67 Roosevelt dime for a considerable amount LESS then this astronomical price. Now come on, is this coin really worth this amount? As of right now there are 34 MS67 and 4 MS68 1990-D dimes with no FULL BANDS. Maybe I'm missing something and I'm the one thats got a screw loose. Are some of us chasing the coin or the slab?

IMHO I think that there are a few people out there looking for 1990-D MS67FB dimes, and I know that I will be one of them, just so I can say that I saved $635.00. The thrill of the hunt is always the best.

Later, Paul.

grip

Your not comparing,apples to apples,there is a premium for FB in the top pops,and the coin ,may go for more than that.Al

DeepCoin

You have to compare it to the Merc series. The FB designation will cost many people significant dollars when their no bands coins fall in price while the FB coins skyrocket. Of course as more coins are made some of those high prices will fall, but the damage has been done to the 67 no bands coins. Check their prices out in a year and see how far they have fallen from last year when there was no designation.

While it may hurt many collectors, this is exactly what the series needed to give it a shot in the arm and provide some real keys. Right now I could not tell you a key to the series, yet every non collector of Mercs knows about the 16-D (I know there are tougher coins, but this is the primary key).

It may be a pain in the short term, but over the next 10 years I think the FB will be good for Roosies. Good luck with your collection!

wondercoin

Paul: IMHO, a bit unfair to post WHILE the auction is going on - perfectly reasonable post after the auction ends though. Just my opinion on that.

I am the underbidder on the coin and could tell you I agree the coin is ooutrageously priced, but, I just might bid again, so that would be equally unfair

Wondercoin

onlyroosies

Why is this coin getting so much attention, I don't get the hype for this one coin. Just last month there
was an MS68FB pop 1 clad dime on eBay and nothing was said about that coin. This is just another
coin that IMHO does not deserve the attention it is getting.

Paul, As far as its value. Its worth what the market will pay. We'll see what that is when the auction is
over. This coin is probably on several watch list.

Onlyroosies

bushmaster8

<< <i>You have to compare it to the Merc series.

<< <i>

Deepcoin, I don't think that is a valid comparison at all. Twenty years ago there were people that knew the 1918-D was a rare mother with FB's.

Conversely, we really don't know how scarce the 90-D is with FB's. At this point in time not enuff people have searched for FB 90-D's (although you can bet the hunt will be on now!).

I have to agree with Paul, people are chasing the plastic and not the coin at this stage of the game. But if those people are comfortable doing that, then more power to them!

Stooge

To all of those parties that have an interest in this coin (ie:bidders and the seller), I apologize for not listing this post AFTER the auction...but it doesn't matter what the date or M/M is. The reason for this post was to say that I don't think that this coin should command that kinda price. Whats to say that 1 or 2 or 3 of those 34/4 dimes could have FB's and whomever buys this coin may lose some value to their coin.

Like I said, I think its a matter of chasing the plastic and not the coin.

What if the top pop for this coin in full band was a MS64FB pop (1/0)but the top pop for NON full bands was MS67 pop of (20). What then would this full band command? What the market will pay? Some of us collectors just have to have a coin right away no matter what the price is.

Deepcoin, You are very correct. The damage is done to the MS66, 67, 68 Roosevelts in the clad series and maybe the silver. The coins are worthless w/o FB. Why do you think that there are so many for sale. People are trying to get what they can. Maybe thats not such a bad idea.

Paul.

MoneyLA

My observations as a non-Roosie collector:

Overpriced? Maybe, but when you want a pop top coin you pay for it. Im guilty of overpaying for choice proof Washingtons when I was assembling my then-#1 registry set. I even paid as much as $500 for a few of the PR70s with a pop of only 5 each, and I overpaid for a 1936 pr65 with color (it was in an ngc pr66 slab before crossing), but frankly they were worth the money to me.

Mitch wrote: "Paul: IMHO, a bit unfair to post WHILE the auction is going on - perfectly reasonable post after the auction ends though. Just my opinion on that. Sorry, Mitch, but I don't understand why this is unfair. Current discussion of a current auction is okay with me. Please explain the "problem" because I'd like to understand?

thanks and cheers, alan mendelson

wondercoin

Alan: You clearly understand the "English" I wrote - but you disagree with the concept. Fair enough

Wondercoin

MoneyLA

Mitch, we discuss the stock market during traading, home prices while a house is "on the market," and coin values while coins are in a dealer's inventory... so why not while a coin auction is in progress?? Please explain the reasoning. cheers, Alan

wondercoin

Alan: Please answer my question first and then I will gladly answer your question.

My question: Would you walk into the auction room while a Heritage auction was being conducted and as a partcular lot was being auctioned (in the middle of the auction process) off in the room with spirited bidding, stand up and say "Have we lost our minds" and "you people are stupid for bidding that much on this coin". If not, why not?

Wondercoin

onlyroosies

"The reason for this post was to say that I don't think that this coin should command that kinda price"

Paul, I totally agree. But then I start to question myself. There are 3 separate bidders that say the coin is worth
it. It probably is worth it "today". But as you said, as more get made then we'll see what its worth. But what if
no more 67FB's get made. What if the rest of the 67 pops are flat bands. Thats part of the game and the gamble.

"Like I said, I think its a matter of chasing the plastic and not the coin"

Come on lets all be hosest here. Its the number on the holder we're all after. The coin is secondary..... Well I would
say, Not exactly. You put an MS66 and an MS67 clad quarter in front of me and I can't tell the defference. But a wash
quarter specialist can. I can actually tell the defference between an MS66, MS67, MS68 and even an MS69 Roosie.
I still agree that the value placed on high grade modern's is based primarily on the number on the holder and not the
coin. I'm not saying that the collector is not loking at the coin, Its just that the number does influence our judgement.

"What if the top pop for this coin in full band was a MS64FB pop (1/0)but the top pop for NON full bands was MS67 pop of (20). What then would this full band command? What the market will pay? "

When PCGS created the registry, They created a new way of valuing coins. Welcome to the new age of coin collecting.
Or should I say registry point collecting. The MS67 would be the coin of choice in the registry over the MS64FB. Neither
one of these coins would hold much value though and would just become hole fillers. Back to the 90D eBay coin. Right
now if you want the highest possible points for that date in your set you had better be willing to pay up for it. And there
are collectors that will. Does that mean that what ever the price ends at is the value of the coin?. IMO, YES, For now or
until another becomes available and a new market price is set. That could be up or down.

"The damage is done to the MS66, 67, 68 Roosevelts in the clad series and maybe the silver"

Thats an understatement. In the silver series the non-FB Roosie values in any grade has been decimated. Some of the
MS67's you can' even get slab cost out of. The non-FB clads have actually held more of there value then the silvers. This
may be because they were a cheaper coin to begin with, or the fact that the clads may just turn out to be a tougher
find in FB. You can still get decent money for a non-FB clad where no FB coins have been made for that date.

"Overpriced? Maybe, but when you want a pop top coin you pay for it. Im guilty of overpaying for choice proof Washingtons "

Guilty as charged. Sometimes you just have to have it...... and the number on the slab....


Onlyroosies

DeepCoin

Wondercoin: Your perspective of standing up in an auction is a bit off base in that this is a VERY limited forum and eBay is an immense selling marketplace. Most of the folks who post here are very aware of different opinions with regard to the value of PCGS graded coins. In fact, on the Coin Forum there are quite a number of bashers of all things PCGS (still not sure why they like the web site so much).

I guess I am saying that one post will never affect a serious registry collector from bidding up to their threshold due to a single post here. If the opinion were posted on eBay along with the auction, then I might have a problem, but certainly not here. It is just a value perspective of ONE individual and most of us see that position and give it the weight we believe it deserves.

For my own part, I think low pop FB Roosies are a bit of a crap shoot in terms of where they are going, but the bottom will (or has, I dont track these closely) fall out of the no band coins so the risk is mitigated somewhat. It is part of the beauty of an emerging market, guessing how many FB coins will be made and where the value will end up being in 5 years. This may be either a very tough or an easy FB coin in 5 years, it will be interesting to see.

Good luck in the auction, we will all be watching to see who puts in a last minute snipe.

MoneyLA

No, Mitch, I would not stand up in the middle of an auction and shout that. But if I were sitting next to you during the auction, or sitting with others who I knew, I would certainly comment "that coin is overvalued" OR "that coin is undervalued," etc. cheers, Alan

wondercoin

Alan: You didn't answer the "why not" part

DEEPCOIN: You suggest this thread would not influence the big and vast ebay world of bidding. YET, EVERY BIDDER ON THAT COIN THUS FAR IS A FORUM MEMBER AND THE SELLER IS TOO! Think about that. The Roosie dime market "at the top" is relatively thin as most markets are. Basically, nearly all the top Roosie buyers are forum members best I know and read this thread. I find it hard to believe a thread like this would not influence the results at auction on that coin.

Now, my comment regarding etiquette - AND IT IS PURELY A COMMENT REGARDING ETIQUETTE has nothing to do with my personal feelings concerning this particular coin or the clad dime series. Please understand that. Of course, I am as stunned as everyone out there that a "Merc guy" outbid me at that level for a modern Roosie. Isn't there a slew of beautiful Mercs one could buy for nearly $700/coin, as opposed to a 1990(d) Roosie for goodness sake!

Wondercoin

MoneyLA

Mitch, standing up in the middle of an auction would be rude. So that's why not. Discussing quietly with my friends in the audience and not disturbing the auction would not be rude, and I would do it -- and I have done it.

Your turn. Cheers, alan

dbldie55

People always talk about open auctions on the US forum. Not sure why that should be any different here. Perhaps this is another unwritten forum rule.

wondercoin

"Discussing quietly with my friends in the audience and not disturbing the auction would not be rude, and I would do it"

Agreed - But, this post (while between "friends") is certainly not "quiet" IMHO. Therein lies the difference of opinion between us. We can't agree on everything!

Wondercoin

P.S. Thanks Alan for running my lot of (20) PCGS-PR69DCAM coins on ebay up to the $10/coin level! If you know a number of single moms in your areas with 3 and 4 year old kids, I know you can do quite well with those "birhyear" coins.

wondercoin

"People always talk about open auctions on the US forum. Not sure why that should be any different here. Perhaps this is another unwritten forum rule."

Dbldie55: If a guest at your house dropped his pants and crapped on your mashed potatos during your holiday meal, is their a "rule" against that you are aware of? Never mind, that "crapped on the mashed potatos" has been used before (thanks Braddick for a great laugh)

Wondercoin

Stooge

As of right now, I am not currently registered on the registry set list of Roosevelt dimes for personal reasons, but when I started my set, there were only 12 sets with 1 being complete. That 1 set had/has a killer set of Roosies and was #1 until the FB designation. That set has several MS67 & MS68 pre-1980 dimes which IMHO are the most difficult. As I now look at the top sets with 20%-50% FB's alot of those are with MS65FB's and MS66FB's with pops of 1/3 and 2/1 etc...are the collectors of top notch Roosevelt sets ready to settle for paying large prices for those coins just to have a FB compared to those w/o FB. With this designation, more collectors will be looking for these higher grade coins and some WILL demand a premium, but to pay that astronomical price for a FB designation when there are several dimes in the registry of the same date with alot better grade is losing your mind.

If you choose that MS67 over a MS64FB then that shows you are looking at the coin and not the holder.

And YES, I have bought the holder and not the coin. Its a matter or acheiving that top spot that everyone wants.

Paul.

MoneyLA

Now, Mitch, you wrote in your post:

"P.S. Thanks Alan for running my lot of (20) PCGS-PR69DCAM coins on ebay up to the $10/coin level! If you know a number of single moms in your areas with 3 and 4 year old kids, I know you can do quite well with those "birhyear" coins."

Gee Mitch, the auction is still going on? Don't you see the irony here?

cheers, Alan

wondercoin

Yes- that's why I did it You are high bidder and I am seller and I know you feel such discussion is perfectly fine.

Wondercoin

Stooge

I made a point that because of the Full Bands the Non-Fb dimes in 67 and 68 would someday become worthless right? Well Wondercoin has made it clear that he has 50 of them for sale at now $5.00 a coin. That to me is a great price for MS68 dimes in any date. See what I mean.

Paul.

wondercoin

Paul: I do not have (50) for sale at $5 each. I put up (50) for sale in a lot on ebay WITH NO RESERVE and an opening bid of $4 each and certainly hoped to see the lot break $500. If it doesn't - oh well

Wondercoin

cladking

It seems to me that there will be a new generation of coin collectors coming. Sure
they aren't all going to collect Roosy dimes but odds are many of them will. What is
a population of 12 or 50 or even 3,000 if there are large numbers who desire the coin?
Even if there are a couple million collecting the dimes many will obviously seek lower
grade but even here in order to find an inexpensive grade one might be forced to drop
to MS-60 or even AU.

So what's a pop one worth today for this specific coin? These bidders would seem to
have a better handle on it than I so why not ask them. You can wait and risk being
priced out of the market or buy now and risk paying more than the current value, but
if it's a bad value long term then one has to suspect that the hobby has much larger
problems then some maniac paying whatever this coin brings.

Fairlaneman

< are some of us chasing the coin or the slab >

Just a comment. If the guy that sent me this dime is chasing the slab I would be highly suprised. Personally I believe he is chasing "Perfection".

Ken

exotica3

I chase slabbs.

Go look at my platinum collection.

Right now I have enough coins to make the top 15 sets in all denominations both MS and PR with only the top 2 showing.

Waldo

I firmly believe all Full Band Roosevelts are overpriced. There is a lot of competition in this series right now and that leads to over paying for the coins you need. But if you really want to be number one, ya gotta be the top bidder. I can honestly say, if I had the extra cash, I'd be over paying my ass off to get the best coins out there. I just don't understand the concern for what others pay for their coins. No one is forcing you to buy anything.

coinkat

cladking

<< <i>I firmly believe all Full Band Roosevelts are overpriced. There is a lot of competition in this series right now and that leads to over paying for the coins you need. But if you really want to be number one, ya gotta be the top bidder. I can honestly say, if I had the extra cash, I'd be over paying my ass off to get the best coins out there. I just don't understand the concern for what others pay for their coins. No one is forcing you to buy anything. >>



It really should be pointed out that a lot of the people forming collections
and paying the "outta their mind" prices are very knowledgeable about the
availability of the coins. While I'm hardly an expert on dimes, I'd be very hes-
itent to say which may or may not be overpriced.

It would seem logical that some of the very best pieces were in these sets
which have been reviewed fo the FB designation. It's not much of a leap to
think that some of the pops could hold up.

bushmaster8

Cladking--I am VERY surprised to hear you say that you think some of these pops will hold up!

I say: DONT COUNT ON IT!

cladking

I'm not extremely confident that many of the pops will actually not increase
at all. I'm more confident that some of the pops for the highest grades will
look similar after most of the high grade Roosies have been graded, and that
demand will continue to grow for all Roosies. This could easily bail out purchas-
ers at even the craziest prices and create some substantial profits on the less
available coins.

Waldo

<< <i>

<< <i>I firmly believe all Full Band Roosevelts are overpriced. There is a lot of competition in this series right now and that leads to over paying for the coins you need. But if you really want to be number one, ya gotta be the top bidder. I can honestly say, if I had the extra cash, I'd be over paying my ass off to get the best coins out there. I just don't understand the concern for what others pay for their coins. No one is forcing you to buy anything. >>



It really should be pointed out that a lot of the people forming collections
and paying the "outta their mind" prices are very knowledgeable about the
availability of the coins. While I'm hardly an expert on dimes, I'd be very hes-
itent to say which may or may not be overpriced.

It would seem logical that some of the very best pieces were in these sets
which have been reviewed fo the FB designation. It's not much of a leap to
think that some of the pops could hold up. >>



I don't question that knowledgeable collectors are paying these prices, nor do I question that the populations may hold up. But the prices paid for Roosevelt dimes is what I question. I myself have paid prices i doubt I will recoup for FB Roosies. I have witnessed prices for top pop Roosies exceeding a nice 16-D Merc!!!!!!! Now I prefer Roosies over Mercs but must confess that classics are a better investment than moderns. If you are collecting for love, than by all means keep paying whatever it takes to get the "Best" . If you want to invest, try stocks or at least time proven coins.

cladking

<< <i>

I have witnessed prices for top pop Roosies exceeding a nice 16-D Merc!!!!!!! Now I prefer Roosies over Mercs but must confess that classics are a better investment than moderns. If you are collecting for love, than by all means keep paying whatever it takes to get the "Best" . If you want to invest, try stocks or at least time proven coins. >>



Depending on what you mean by "nice" 16-D dimes, there are hundreds of them. This
is a very popular coin and the demand for it is very high. Large numbers of advanced col-
lectors exist who would desire this coin and the price is correspondingly high. But by the
same token when you talk a just missed Roosie dime then you are talking very little money.
Only those which are in top grade AND have few in that grade will command any sort of sig-
nificant premium. The total value of all 16-D dimes dwarfs the value of all 90-D dimes which
command a premium, and this includes many hundreds of thousands of nice unc coins.

Granted the classics have a proven value over many years, but this value is dependent on
a stable number of collectors. Either there will be a new generation of collectors and the 16-D
will maintain its value well into the future or there will be no new generation of collectors and
the 16-D will erode in value as the number of retiring collectors begins to exceed the number
of existing collectors who desire the coin. If there is a new generation of collectors it is quite
likely that many will collect moderns like the clad dimes and the tiny demand for these will grow
rapidly over the years. (as it has for the last 8 years).

The demand for moderns (at a premium) is so small it is difficult even imagining that it might
fall. There are hundreds of thousands collecting these from circulation so seeing large increases
requires little imagination.

Buying coins as an investment is probably not wise and can result in losses even when the
speculation is accurate, but it really seems that there is less risk in most moderns than in the
classics. This is neither an endorsement of investing in coins nor a suggestion that one pay
"crazy money" for any coin, merely an observation that it is only "true rarities" which could be
able to withstand a substantial decrease in demand without losing most of their historic value.
How you or I define rarity has no meaning in this case, only the way future collectors define it
will make any difference whatsoever.

Waldo

Very good points! I'm being swayed...

cladking

Cool.

There are no gaurantees. But My money is on a robust coin hobby and market well into the future.

There will be corrections along the way and people who keep their wits can enjoy these too.