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1909 T206
baseballjeff
Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭
Lets start with an awesome set.
1909 T206
I know little about, just the story of the Wagner.
Everyone?
1909 T206
I know little about, just the story of the Wagner.
Everyone?
0
baseballjeff
Posts: 1,070 ✭✭✭
Comments
Good T206 site for background info
It's obviously a monster of a set to collect. I'd stick with PSA graded cards to ensure authenticity. I'd also recommend starting with a subset first (ie Southern Leaguers, HOFers, etc.)
Enjoy!
I think you'll find alot of useful info on the Net54 board, as well as the site anjcollection mentioned. Also, buy Lew Lipset's encyclopedia of baseball cards, and you'll be well informed very quickly.
I don't collect the set per se, but basically you should know that the cards were issued over three years, 1909-1911. There are 523 different subjects on 16 different backs, reflecting different brands of cigarattes (plus Polar Bear--a plug tobacco), with Sweet Caporal and Piedmont the most prevalent (the degree of scarcity is found at the T206 museum site). On each back are different factory designations, which also vary widely in scarcity, and some of the brands indicate different series. Trying to assemble the set with no distinction as to back is hard enough, trying to do so by back would be nearly impossible to impossible, depending on the back, as some cards were not issued with some backs. Many collectors try to own at least one example of every back, but some are extremely tough to find, and the Ty Cobb back, well, forget it. I mention this because if you see an auction for a mid or even lesser grade common card going for huge dollars, the price is likely explained by the back or factory designation, unless it is one of a handful or so of scarce variations that can be found in the set.
Lots of HOFers and the sheer attractiveness of the cards makes them a favorite. However, keep in mind that most of you on this board are going to have change your mindset about collecting if you want to go after this baby. There will be little or no discussion of whether a card deserves an 8 or 9, and you will have to accept that a set in 5 (even without Wagner, Plank, etc) is a wonderful accomplishment. It took me a long time to "accept" pre-Topps cards in these mid grades, as I really enjoy high-graded cards. Still, once you come to grips with the fact that no-one can assemble the set in 8 (or probably 7) because there are insufficient examples in existence--forget about the price--then you can really enjoy the beauty of these cards. PSA and SGC are both good for this issue, as the cards can be found trimmed. Once you have a handle on the set, though, you can take chances on raw cards, as there still are a fair share of those available.
Again, I don't collect the set as such, so I look forward from hearing more tips and stories from those who do.
Todd
ebay id: nolemmings
Here is another cool site: http://www.vintagecardtraders.org/virtual/t206/t206.html. They are trying to collect images of every card (It may take a minute or so to load).
This card is the most interesting one to me. It was completely unknown until the '70's, when Larry Fritsch discovered it, and without informing anyone else of its existence started buying up all the Doyles looking for the Nat'l variation (the standard one just says NY, and has Doyle winding up with his hands over his head). When it was reported in the 80's Fritsch said he had known about it and owned a few. I'm sure Marc S. has the full story and more details, but that is the jist of it. I think there are 5-6 that exist, one just selling in the Mastro last month. Also, this card was the source of the Olberman/Rosen/SGC fiasco a few years ago, when Keith Olberman had bought one from Mr Mint that SGC had slabbed. Turned out to be a fake, Rosen refunded the money to Olberman, and heads rolled. Olbermans article "Slab This" in VCBC was an excellent article about graded cards.
After the US Caramel Lindstrom (2 known I believe, both owned by Fritsch) this would seem to be one of the rarest cards in a mainstream 20th century set, but is probably too rare to have much demand for it. As Yogi would say, it's so rare nobody wants it.
I always find it fascinating in that this set has been studied endlessly for almost a century and we're still finding new cards. There were also some proofs of cards that weren't issued up for auction a few years back, I think Olberman won those as well. Can you imagine what a Joe Jackson southern leaguer would go for?
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
<< <i>Todd- isn't it 524, if you include the Doyle Nat'l variation?
This card is the most interesting one to me. It was completely unknown until the '70's, when Larry Fritsch discovered it, and without informing anyone else of its existence started buying up all the Doyles looking for the Nat'l variation (the standard one just says NY, and has Doyle winding up with his hands over his head). When it was reported in the 80's Fritsch said he had known about it and owned a few. I'm sure Marc S. has the full story and more details, but that is the jist of it. I think there are 5-6 that exist, one just selling in the Mastro last month. Also, this card was the source of the Olberman/Rosen/SGC fiasco a few years ago, when Keith Olberman had bought one from Mr Mint that SGC had slabbed. Turned out to be a fake, Rosen refunded the money to Olberman, and heads rolled. Olbermans article "Slab This" in VCBC was an excellent article about graded cards.
After the US Caramel Lindstrom (2 known I believe, both owned by Fritsch) this would seem to be one of the rarest cards in a mainstream 20th century set, but is probably too rare to have much demand for it. As Yogi would say, it's so rare nobody wants it.
I always find it fascinating in that this set has been studied endlessly for almost a century and we're still finding new cards. There were also some proofs of cards that weren't issued up for auction a few years back, I think Olberman won those as well. Can you imagine what a Joe Jackson southern leaguer would go for? >>
Couple of comments:
1) Griffins has hit the nail on the head in terms of rarity. Basically it is lonely at the top -- and there are but a select few individuals who will routinely open their wallets to pay five figures for a single card -- even if it is is a "legitimate" variation. This is easily most reflected by the fact that the PSA VG 3 that just sold sold for approximately 30 - 35% of what the Good 2 sold for a few years ago. An intriguing subset of the above is that not only are there very few extraordinary rich collectors willing to pay megabucks for cards -- but when they have their mind set on a card, price often becomes a secondary consideration.
2) The last known "appearance" of the Lindstrom card was the lesser example that Fritsch had re-slabbed (!!!) into an SCD holder and tried to sell on Ebay. He did not realize his reserve price -- and there has been no public knowledge of the card actually transacting. The Lindstrom card has a fabled history -- going back to Joshua Evans brokering the "discovery" of the card, pairing it with a $1 million price tag. Though it never attained that level -- certainly the brand image Evans helped create has a positive value. Back to my rich collector theory, though -- here's another Lesson: If there are only two known examples of a card -- and you purchase both of them....odds are good that you will not realize a profit when you sell.
3) For those that do not know, Olbermann does own slabbed cards -- and he does own a Doyle NY Nat'l.
4) Olbermann does seem to have the most comprehensive collection of the "proof" cards from the T-206 set. His collection offers a fascinating overview of the logistics and production process of many of the great vintage issues. I do not know enough about Olbermann as a collector, though. He has been very helpful in some regards -- but in many others, there are scores of other collectors who offer more back to the hobby than Mr. Olbermann appears to.
5) The T-206 set is absolutely one of the most fascinating studies out there. Fabled in legend, stories, and the collecting hearts of many -- there are *numerous* ways in which any collector can pursue a T-206 dream. Though the full set seems a hearty endeavour only meant for the rich and powerful -- there is so many other collecting tilts you can take on the set -- whether team sets, whether type backs, factory designations, print variations, etc. I have a modest collection of Phillies cards from the T-206 set -- and it is one of the smaller accumulations of which I am quite proud.
One of the easier backs that I have had difficulty obtaining is the El Principe De Gales back with a Hall of Famer on the front.
The highest graded card I have is the Walter Johnson with glove in a PSA 6. That card has a Piedmont back.
<< <i>I am trying to complete a back set but I am looking for a Hall of Famer on the card front. One of my first purchases was a Carolina Bright black writing on the back card of Joe McGinnity. Originally when I was looking for these cards I used Alan Hager's guide to help me figure out what backs were most difficult. According to him the backs in order of easy to obtain are: 1) Piedmont 2) Sweet Caporal, 3) Polar Bear, 4) Old Mill 5) Sovereign 6) El Principe De Gale 7) Carolina Bright (red printing) 8) Hindu (Brown Printing) 9) Carolina Bright (black printing) 10) Tolstoi 11) American Beauty (with border) 12) American Beauty (no border) 13) Hindu Red 14) Cycle 15) Lennox 16) Drum 17) Uzit 18) Broadleaf 19) Ty Cobb. Of course, since that time I have realized that maybe I should not have put so much faith in Hager.
One of the easier backs that I have had difficulty obtaining is the El Principe De Gales back with a Hall of Famer on the front.
The highest graded card I have is the Walter Johnson with glove in a PSA 6. That card has a Piedmont back. >>
Hager's guide probably was not too far off given the information available at the time. Further research and analysis has simply refined the "rankings" somewhat -- sometimes more by the increased speciality and focus on minute differences on the back.
BroadLeaf 460s are incredibly scarce -- many many times rarer than the BL 350s. Hindu Reds are also incredibly scarce. The famed "Brown Printing" Lenox is alive and well -- and still a subject of contention, even though the evidence seems to be clear. The Factory 42 backs are often harder to find, though the multiples commanded are very weak overall. Drum is definitely more difficult than Uzit -- but that is just a touch and feel exercises. I think at this points, there are certainly more Magie cards known to exist than the entire wealth of Drum back cards. Fascinating stuff.
The two sources cited above are the ones I am aware of.
My T206 collection is currently on hold with 155 psa 8s, a couple of 9s and a few less than 8. At $500 a pop for the commons in psa 8 its pretty tough to pursue many other sets and this one as well. Three noteworthy sets on the registry--T206 King, Don Louchios and the Old Man. Don rarely gets mentioned on the registry but he has a simply unbelievable collection.
Commons and minor leaguers go for about same price--southern leaguers at a premium. Hall of famers generally between 2500 and 4000 in psa 8.
Do not but ungraded cards here--I bought a raw Cobbgreen back in nrmt-mt and it came back trimmed--sold it as a trimmed card. Also had three other hall of famers come back trimmed--expensive lesson.
Hope to get back to set at some point and complete excluding the big three cards.
Davalillo
Why exclude the "big 3"? They will be tough to do in PSA 8, but are not untouchable in PSA 3-5 (except for Wagner of course). The Magie goes for about 5K, the Plank double that. Would you rather have the set as uncomplete than have a few in lower grade? This is not by any means a criticism, just a question.
All (and especially Marc)
What is the current thinking on the (S)nodgrass and Shappe variations (might have the wrong name there, but it does start with an S) Are these considered by most to be legitimate variations (a la Herrer, Hermansk, Bakep, etc) or just printing oddities? There seemed to be a lot of talk about Nodgrass on the Full Count Board a few years ago, but haven't heard much of anything once that board was taken down.
Jeff-
Great topic, nice to be talking about something a little different for once!
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
What are the breakdowns of your set from a back-type perspective? Would you consider your set complete with a representative card of each back? Do you have any Drum backs?
Curious how the high grade cards are backed...
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
"Really, what is left to say about this great issue that hasn't already been said? Without a doubt, this is the most studied dissected and discussed set in the history of the hobby. Given the set's great size and infamous rarities (Wagner, Doyle, Plank, and Magie), full completion of this set - in any grade -is a goal rarely attempted, much less completed. The mystique and glamour that have enveloped this issue over the years is matched by few American contemporary collectibles. Other featured cards include Ty Cobb (4 different images), Walter Johnson, and Cy Young."
I am in awe of the almost complete T206 sets on the registry in mid/high grade . At 520+ cards I reckon if you had a time machine and went back to 1909 you'd have trouble completing the set!! Just have to hang around for two years outside tobacco shops or start smoking heavily. Also the temptation to go to the local ballgame and pick up some souvenirs might prove to be appealing for many!! I wonder how many collectors at the time attempted to complete the set? Did 460 different cards by 1911 constitute a full set?
I would love to collect most of the portrait cards or even attempt the set minus 4 in low to mid grade but don't have the time, money or patience involved I reckon. I agree with mrc32 regarding the T205's being better looking IMHO and am having a tough enough time finding the T205 cards I need to keep me occupied for a long time yet!
Great idea to discuss and dissect a different set each week. I hope most board members participate and we can keep this going. I don't unfortunately have any more info or personal anecdotes to add on this set but I'm sure others do.
Nick
ebay id: bongobell
Of course you are right. I have never bought a card graded less than 8 before(those in my collection are result of submitting my raw cards). However, I would make an exception for this set. Realistically, there are going to be some killer low pops at the end as well that would have to be bought in less than 8.
The Bobs,
Amazingly enough, I have never checked the backs--but I will and report back.
Jim
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?
hey hey hey
hey hey hey
I counted the first 100 ans they were 52 Sweet Caporal, 45 Piedmont, 2 Old Mill and 1 American Beauty.
Jim
The best,
Jeff
Anyway, what I wouldn't give to go back to the GW Motor Lodge 20 years ago.
2005 Origins Old Judge Brown #/20 and Black 1/1s, 2000 Ultimate Victory Gold #/25
2004 UD Legends Bake McBride autos & parallels, and 1974 Topps #601 PSA 9
Rare Grady Sizemore parallels, printing plates, autographs
Nothing on ebay
<< <i>
All (and especially Marc)
What is the current thinking on the (S)nodgrass and Shappe variations (might have the wrong name there, but it does start with an S) Are these considered by most to be legitimate variations (a la Herrer, Hermansk, Bakep, etc) or just printing oddities? There seemed to be a lot of talk about Nodgrass on the Full Count Board a few years ago, but haven't heard much of anything once that board was taken down.
Jeff-
Great topic, nice to be talking about something a little different for once! >>
Jeff:
Some thoughts:
A) There are always a significant contingent of "variation" collectors out there. There is a bit of an ebb and flow to that process - and right now there are less people collecting variations than two to there years ago.
C) The "S"nodgrass card has cooled off considerably. Unfortunately, a very sophisticated individual found a way to remove the "S" from vintage T-206 cards -- and he was subsequently able to get a number of them encapsulated. To detect that anomaly, you need to very closely look at the observe of the card under very different angles and degrees of light. My rule of thumb is this: About 90% of the authentic "S"nodgrass errors have at least a small portion of the "S" visible. Only about 10% of the authentic Nodgrass cards are missing the entire "S". As such, it is easiest to simply avoid any Nodgrass card that has the "S" completely missing. Unfortunately, one opportunistic prig wrecked a number of vintage cards -- was able to take advantage of a grading system that was at the time incomplete -- and has helped ruin the market for that variation/borken printing plate in the interim.
Cheers-
MS
I owned a bunch in that state but sold them years ago to fund other whims.
I had my eye on a few that "Dude" had on e-bay just last week.
I never expect to endevour on the set, but there are a few that really catch my eye, I imagine some of them will end up in my mail box one day.
Baseball cards certainly seemed popular during the T-206 era (1909-11), what with all the tabacco, candy and baking variations on the T-206 theme.
I collect 1911 Williams Baking D-359's, 1910 Tip Top Bread and 1912 Fatima Player cards from this era, all are small sets(which I prefer) and are very difficult , but have enormous eye appeal...at least to this camper.
Too bad we still don't know (beyond academic contention) how the T-206s were produced.
way to keep yourself in the hobby, and you thought you could just slip away for a while
I really don't care much about having them in ultra-high-grade, and in fact, I only have 3 that are graded at all. If I could afford it, maybe... I'd love to have an 8 one day.
Un
...working on a T206 team set of the 1909 Tigers - anyone got a horizontal Mullin in 3-5 they want to part with? Or a low-grade Cobb (any!)?
Harris T206 Set Nets Over 1.1 Million Dollars
very interesting. Some of you have more knowledge about this set than
I'll ever hope to obtain. One thing I do know is that these are little
pieces of art, and small windows into the history of (what used to be)
the national pastime.
I'm buying HOF'ers from this set as funds allow. Nicely centered PSA 4's
with no creases are fine with me. These cards not only represent a
totally different era and style of baseball, but a totally different
America. I like the stoic looks in the portraits -- that was the way
people posed for pictures back then, and it gives the cards that early
1900's vintage look. My humble collection only has a handful of T206's
so far (2 of the Cobb cards & a Mathewson "dark cap"), but I did just
happen to win three T206 auctions on ebay this past weekend. I had been
looking for a nice Waddell card for some time now, and the other two were
impulse buys from the same seller. I can always sell if I need the
money, right???
Here's a look at just 3 of the great cards you'll find in this monster
set, and a couple notes on the ballplayers:
Sam Crawford, throwing--
Nicknamed "Wahoo Sam", Crawford still retains the all-time record for
triples with 312 over his 19 years. Had 2,964 hits & averaged .309.
Also has the single-season mark for inside-the-park homeruns with 12
in 1901. Was already a veteran when Cobb arrived in Detroit, and most
likely taught a young Tyrus a thing or two about the game.
Willie Keeler, with bat--
"Wee Willie" Keeler. Coined the phrase, "Hit 'em where they ain't!"
Career average an amazing .345, even for that era. Used one of the
shortest, yet heaviest bats in major league history, and was the best
bunter and place-hitter of his day. The look of this card is awesome,
with the swirling clouds in the background, the diminutive stare, and
what looks to be his glove(?) in his back pocket.
Last, but not least......
Rube Waddell, throwing--
Led American League in K's six straight years, and was one of the best
lefties in the history of baseball. In 1904 he struck out 349 batters
with his exceptional control. Was also one of the most colorful and
eccentric characters to play the game. Had a habit of following fire
engines and spent money so fast that at one time the A's paid him in
dollar bills so his money would last longer. In a game in Detroit, Rube
had his outfielders come in close and sit down on the grass while he
struck out the side. He would hold up games in which he was scheduled
to pitch by playing marbles with the kids outside the park. At one time
Rube had a provision in his contract that forbid him from eating Animal
Crackers in bed -- his bunkmate got fed up with the crumbs and would not
re-sign unless Connie Mack added the clause to Waddell's contract. All
this, and his T206 card is one of most appealing cards in the set.
<< <i>I personally like how "same" cards were differentiated by stamps, advertising backs, etc. It was an ingenous form of mass customization over 90 years ago. Probably would make a good Case Study for Technology and Operations Management up here.
Too bad we still don't know (beyond academic contention) how the T-206s were produced. >>
<< <i>would make a good Case Study for Technology...Too bad be still don't know (beyond academic contention) how the T-206s were produced >>
I'm a virtual dinasaur on computers and a newbie on these posts. In fact, this is my first post. I know of a couple good articles that,
assuming you don't have them, might be enjoyable and enlightening. The first comes from Issue #34 of The Vintage & Classic Baseball Collector. The article is entitled "The T206 Set - Errors, Proofs ... or Printer's Scrap?" by Scott Forrest with help from Keith O'Leary, Charlie Henry & Peter Calderon.
Besides the intro, the subheads for the article are: color variations, wet sheet cards, mis-cuts, die problems, printer's scrap, finally the "proof", and errors...and conclusion. This article has several good clear color photos to show examples of what he's discussing.
This back-issue is available from the editor and publisher, Don Betz for $10. Their phone number is 800-417-7670. Their email address is donbetz@vcbc.com.
The second article is more of a long paragraph. Some collectors have wondered why those BEAUTIFUL tobacco issues simply STOPPED around 1913. From an article I saved from SPORT FAN, May-June, 1973
there was this column "For What It's Wirt" by long-ago hobby legend, Wirt Gammon. And AWAY we go..."ROSSVILLE, GA. (Special to SPORT FAN)-- A visit to Atlanta to see the Braves play the Mets didn't bring any luck for the Braves. But it netted some special information from Jack Lang, New York sports writer who is secretary-treasurer of the Baseball Writers Association of America. Jack is one of several baseball writer-collectors in the New York area. Tommy Holmes, Joe Reichler and Jack Segar are others.
"Actually, these three are ex-writers for New York newspapers, since Holmes is retired, Reichler is public relations man for the Baseball Commissioner's office, and Segar is retired from the Baseball Commissioner's office. All four have fine collections, and not just baseball. They like the Indian sets, for instance. Jack said Holmes' set was outstanding. Back to the special information from Jack. Just the other day, Dick Reuss of Detroit asked some questions I couldn't answer. One was why the cigarette card companies stopped issuing cards? Why, indeed? Well, Jack Lang, without being asked, told me. They stopped it because they couldn't get the German dyes any more. That was in the beginning days of World War I. England slapped a shipping blockade on Germany first thing; this was a few years before the U.S. entered the war. Lang, like many of the rest of us card nuts, greatly admires the bright coloring of cards like T205 and T206. These German dyes hold fast. Colors on these cards are as bright today as they were when issued. I agreed and mentioned that by contrast I once mounted some stamps and hung them on a wall. Soon they faded out from being hit by light."
Anyway, I know it took a while for Wirt to get to his point, but I thought that was very intriguing. It seems in some of the old hobby papers you'd have to read every line; otherwise, you might miss something good. Take care.
If anyone is interested in unopened cigarette packs that may or may not contain a T206 card, I checked out an excellent resource on the subject, Jon Canfield's book/pamphlet "Baseball & Tobacco." Jon sells the book at cost ($3 if I remember correctly), and it's a great reference. You can contact him at joncanfield19@hotmail.com.
Anyway, if you are looking at a cigarette pack from one of the many manufacturers in the T206 set, you should make sure it has a tax stamp from 1909 or 1910. For most of the manufacturers, the tax stamp should also say Factory 25, District 2, Virginia. The exceptions are: American Beauty 460 series - Factory 42, District 4, North Carolina; El Principale De Gales - Factory 17, District 2, Virginia; Hindu - Factory 649, District 1, New York; Lenox - Factory 30, District 2, New York; Piedmont 350/460 series - Factory 25, District 2, Virginia or Factory 42, District 4, North Carolina; Polar Bear - Factory 6, District 1, Ohio; Sweet Caporal - Factory 25, District 2, Virginia or Factory 30, District 2, New York or Factory 649, District 1, New York or Factory 42, District 4, North Carolina; Tolstoi - Factory 30, District 2, New York; Ty Cobb - Factory 33, District 4, North Carolina; Uzit - Factory 30, District 2, New York.
Even with this data, the pack may contain a T205 card, a non-baseball card, or no card at all. If it does NOT match this data though, it will not contain a T206 card.
Contact an expert before investing in a pack such as this.
Joe
This is the first time I think I've ever cut-pasted something from a message board into a document to save for future reference. THANK YOU!
Morrie
...who's never so much as *seen* a pack of cigarettes from that era, and probably won't ever, but feels better anyway!
Joe
> as they were when issued.
That's a fact! I got my three new T206 cards today in the mail, and
the colors are even bolder and richer than they appear on the scans I
posted. It's so easy for me to look past the rounded corners and focus
on the colorful, vibrant images.
I was reading an interesting article on the T206 set by Christopher
Benjamin, and he addresses the cease of production on T206's. He
writes, "The '350-460' series of T206, along with the designs of the
preceding series, was released through the spring and summer of 1910.
In the fall, however, the curtain rang down on both T206 and its creator,
the American Tobacco Company. The gigantic financial successes of 1909
and 1910 also brought anti-trust litigation, and in 1911, the company
was ordered to break up its American holdings. As a result of this
decision, the production of tobacco insert cards became a thing of the
past in the United States."
And regarding the opening of cigarette packs... has anyone here ever
opened a vintage cigarette pack? I also read in the above mentioned
article that not one but several cards were generally inserted into
each package. I'd like to hear cigarette pack opening stories if anyone
has one. Surely someone like Zardoz has opened a pack or two...
still trying to figure out why Carr was using that gay running punt
play against Iowa yesterday, even after one got partially blocked,
Chuck
He said he smoked Piedmont as a kid, I"m sure he opened many packs back then.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
Griffins 1
Zardoz 0
just kidding,
Chuck
There is one online story about a T-206 pack being opened with an Otto Knabe card as being the price. Read more here
out a few years ago. After looking at those pictures, I was surprised to
see how small cigarette packs were back then -- about the size of a T206
card.
By the way, in the same article I quoted a few posts above, the writer
lists some of the "subsets" that collectors might try to build instead
of tackling the whole T206 set. Among others, he lists collecting the
Phillies (as you've done, MS), and describes them in quotes as "the
derelicts of the National League". I take it they were pretty bad back
in those days?
Anthony,
I NEVER said that I smoked Piedmonts. I smoked Cycle Cigarettes. Smoother tasting
Besides, Cycle backs are so much rarer and are really fun to chase. It's a good job that I got such a hell of a start in my youth. Still, 5 packs a day was a high price to pay......... cough cough.
CW.
"I take it they were pretty bad back in those days? "
You mean that the Phillies have ever been any good. Look at their fans. They even booed Mike Schmidt! ...and not the one on this board, though they'd boo him if given a chance.
"
The Phillies are the franchise of futility. Cubs and Red Sox may lay claim to that infamous moniker due to their extended period without a WS title -- but the Phillies are and have always been the franchise of futility. I love 'em anyway...
Cycle 460's no less, never underestimate the ability of a displaced English lad to find a smooth draw!
MRC-
agree the T205's are nicer in the higher grades, but once they get a little worked over they get pretty ugly. T206's actually look a bit cooler with a little wear and aging.
Always looking for Topps Salesman Samples, pre '51 unopened packs, E90-2, E91a, N690 Kalamazoo Bats, and T204 Square Frame Ramly's
demise of tobacco cards, but go curious and looked at my limited research and found some interesting items. With all due respect, I
think Jack Lang may be closer to the truth. Chris said that with the antitrust litigation, tobacco cards ceased to be made after 1910. He
is mistaken, though perhaps partially correct. I quote VCBC#34 (19th Century Issues of W. Duke, Son & Co., p.42) "Through aggressive,
innovative advertising campaigns orchestrated by James Duke, including the use of insert cards, W. Duke, Sons and Company eventually
became the leading cigarette producer in the country. One journalist later noted that James Duke 'was always an aggressive advertiser,
devising new and startling methods which dismayed his competitors. He was always willing to spend in advertising a proportion of his
profits which seemed appalling to more conservative [i.e. CHEAP] manufacturers.'
James Duke's American Tobacco Company thrived after its 1890 merger with its four important competitors. For over 20 years, the company grew--to behemoth proportions. James Duke controlled the largest tobacco industry in the world. By 1910, Duke owned 150 tobacco factories with a combined capitalization of $502 million! Remember, Duke believed in aggressive advertising (such as those beautiful T206s). No wonder the other tobacco companies felt smoked out of the market.
I can just picture one of the sons of the president of a competing company asking his father--"dwaddy, could you please buy some Sweet Caporal or Piedmont cigarettes? WHY?!? Because I want some more of those great baseball cards that come in THOSE packages of THEIR cigarettes. WHAT DO YOU MEAN MORE CARDS, SON? Well, a couple days ago I swapped my chum Throckie my Marklin train set for his 118 baseball cards. Look at these dwaddy, they're beautiful! See, here's Big Ed Walsh. Don't he look swell in his black uniform? Here's Rube Waddell--I eat Barnum's Animal Qwackers just like Rube does, only I try not to eat 'em in bed. If I do the ants get in my bed. Here's Ty Cobb! I love that green background; it matches his team's colors. Here's my favorite---Hans Wagner. Throckie was the only one at school that had Honus and now I've got him! Boy Dad, why don't you put baseball cards in your packs of cigarettes? The president can't help but admire the cards. After all, he was a baseball fan, too. But after his son's question, he started turning RED, and said RUN ALONG SON, DADDY NEEDS TO THINK. The president's cogitating, getting madder and madder. His teeth clench his cigar; after a bit he's fuming as his lips move the cigar from one side of his mouth to the other. Finally, after a near fit of apoplexy, he jumps to his feet, almost shouting to himself, THAT SETTLES IT! Throwing down his cigar in a rage, he picks up the phone, and, barking into the receiver, says GIVE ME MY LAWYER ON THE PHONE! This was just a hypothetical dramatization that is actually more plausible than Twain's The Prince and the Pauper.
Thus, perhaps BECAUSE Duke spent too much money on advertising (via the beautiful, alluring cards which the meager competition could not ever hope or DESIRE to duplicate) the cards may have triggered enough sales to bring about the litigation. We'll never know for sure, I suppose. Back to VCBC--"because of growing antitrust sentiment among the American public, the United States Supreme Court ruled in 1911 that the American Tobacco Company was a monopoly, and forced it to dissolve. James Duke oversaw the breakup and formation of four new tobacco companies...."
Since the new companies knew how well insert cards increased sales, 1911 saw the issue of the T-201 Double Folders and gorgeous T-3 Turkey Reds. 1911-1912 brought the beloved T-205s (issued after the T-206s). 1912 brought the the T-202 Triple Folders. 1914-1915 brought the T-213s, T-214s, and T-215s. Overall, after the antitrust litigation, and without James Duke's guiding (generous) hand, the tobacco sets got smaller in quantity and sometimes quality (T-207s). That brings us to the beginning of World War I, where I feel Jack Lang is correct--the loss of the German dyes due to the British slapping a shipping blockade on Germany. No dyes--no dice, for more insert cards. Maybe that was good in the end. Look at how much trouble collectors have getting meaningful quantities of them now? I know--all you need is a barrel of money--how true! It WOULD have been swell to have T206-like cards of Joe Wood, Joe Jackson, Jack Coombs, Grover Alexander, and that kid pitcher for the Red Sox by the name of Ruth. Oh well.
I agree with you. The writer of the article I posted, Benjamin, would
have been more accurate if he was speaking specifically about the T206
set ceasing production after the anti-trust litigation, rather than say-
ing, "tobacco cards became a thing of the past." Or maybe he should
have said "eventually became..." Obviously, and as you mentioned, the
T202 & T207 sets were issued in 1912. I included that last line in the
article for completeness, and the reason it was posted was to expand a
little on your post, focusing on the demise of the T206 set. I hope
you didn't read it as an argument against your post, although I can see
how it might be interpreted that way. I agree (and find it interesting)
that the end of tobacco cards in general was because of the reasons
Jack Lang pointed out -- we'll call it "The German Dye Theory".
Chuck