My e-Mail To PCGS - NOT "Dirty Laundry" OR Should There Be A COMPLETE Lincoln Registry Set

redcents

"Hi BJ,

I was wondering if you'd consider adding a COMPLETE Lincoln set to the registry - 09-Date for BOTH proof & non-proofs both basic & varieties. NGC currently has this (for what would be compared to your "basic" set) & I think it is the truest total picture of someone's Lincoln collection to have ALL in 1 set. I think this will be a benefit to ALL Lincoln collectors, the hobby in general, and to your company (since more interest = more grading fees) in particular.

As for my previous e-mail, the section below I believe is the most pressing:
"Finally, I think that the 1971-S Double Die (with a weight of 5), should have a
cameo bonus (pop only 7) AT LEAST the same as the 1960 S/L and a DCAM bonus
(also pop 1) AT LEAST as high as the 1960 S/L."

Thanks,

Roger"

Any comments would be appreciated. Of course there may be some that don't want a set that might "dilute" what they have if they are not strong in one particular area.

sonofagunk

For some reason I think PCGS is having techincal problems with the lincoln sets. They STILL cannot add the lincoln short set (34-58), but they seem to be able add a ton of other short sets. Maybe they use the same programmers as Heritage.

-sog

Steve27

I would suggest asking a question on the subject to David (via the Q/A forum), but it will probably just land on the bottom of their to-do list.

Steve

OK Roger, let me weigh in on this subject. We, of course should have a complete Lincoln Business strike registry and a complete Lincoln Proof registry. (1909-date). We WILL have those registries in PCGS. Both BJ & David have said so. If you check their daily registry news section you will see that they are continually updating and weighing new sets in various denominations. JUST BE PATIENT!

What is more important to me is exactly HOW the complete registries are organized. I think the way NGC does it is preferable. You will note that they include KEY varieties in their sets. Coins like the 1922 no "D", 1955 DD, 1972 DD, 1983 & 1984 & 1995 DD. They include the 1960 & 1970 small dates and the 1979 & 1981 proof mintmark variations. THey DO NOT include the hundreds of variety Lincoln cents that SOME Lincoln collectors collect. These are the coins that are NOT listed in the major price guides, but may be very valuable. Coins like the 1969,1970,1971 DD's or the 1960 small date over large date varieties. I believe THESE type coins should be in their own registry for those who collect them. I believe that it is too difficult to DETERMINE which of these should or should not be included in an all inclusive registry. I believe that over 90% of Lincoln cent collectors collect the coins listed in the major price guides. I believe that most Lincoln cent collectors want to work toward a complete registry collection that includes coins recognized in the major price guides. I also know that for me personally, I have difficulty accepting the 1960 proof LD/SM & SM/LD "doubled dies" as part of the complete proof set. I do believe the 1990 no "S" should be part of the complete proof set because it is recognized by the major price guides. I would appreciate your input on this as well as other Lincoln cent registry collectors. I know it can be controversal, but if it is "talked" out here, maybe we can come to some agreement. Again, JMHO. Steve

redcents

Steve,

Let me first say, that is great news about their (BJ & DH) statements. Secondl;y, which "registry news section" are you referring to? Thirdly, I should correct my parenthetical statement above comparing the NGC set to PCGS's basic set. NGC's set is in fact somewhat of a hybrid. It does include the major varieties (22 No D & the 1960 & 1970 Small Dates) & double dies (55, 72, 83, 84, & 95) and even ADDS the 7 1982 varieties (when will PCGS start this?) but it does not include the 09 S/S, 17DD, 36DD, 41DD, 43 D/D, 44 D/S, 60-D S/L, 69-S DD, 70-S DD, or 71DD - and this is just for the MS set. I won't bore you with a proof analysis. Sure, it seems VERY reasonable (to me) for PCGS to start a variety set. What would make it even better would be for them to start slabbing all the varieties ANACS, CONECA, & Cherrypickers recognizes other than as "error" coins and start listing them all in the online pop report. The more exposure the better for everyone (except of course the ones that don't want the prices to rise ).

Steve

Roger, my understanding is that BJ & DH will expand the various registries overtime to meet the wants and needs of the collectors. Obviously, the Lincoln cent collectors need to make their desires known to BJ until this happens. I was involved with getting the complete 1909-1958 proof set on the registry by contacting BJ. DH needs to approve all configurations.

Your list of business strike cents in your complete set includes 10 varieties. I would include the 1944 D/S (both versions) in my set BECAUSE THEY ARE RECOGNIZED IN THE MAJOR PRICE GUIDES. I would have the other 9 coins in a separate varieties registry. WHY did you chose just those 9 coins? Why not the 1946 D/D or the 1947 D/D or the 1958 D/D or the 1946 S/D (overmintmark) or the 1985 D/D. How do YOU decide which to include and which not to include in a complete Lincoln registry set? Steve

redcents

"...but it does not include the 09 S/S, 17DD, 36DD, 41DD, 43 D/D, 44 D/S, 60-D S/L, 69-S DD, 70-S DD, or 71DD..."

Steve,

I DID list it (the 44 D/S). I only listed the ones that PCGS currently has in their variety set that NGC doesn't - simply for comparison sake. I wasn't suggesting that the variety set be limited to those additional 10.

Steve

Roger, we may be in complete agreement. If you are saying to have within the Lincoln Cent registries, four additional sets. A proof and a business strike set paterned after the current NGC versions with possibly ONE or TWO additional coins like the 1944 D/S and the 1990 no "S". And a proof and a business strike set of varieties only that would include all the other coins that Lincoln people collect. If you agree with that concept, we are in complete agreement. Steve

redcents

Steve,

I think we're getting close at least. I see no impediment to PCGS putting together a basic set from 09-date for MS & Proof. I do think further down the road they may also put together a variety only set - but that will be MUCH further off as they'll need to redo the pop reports and the way they holder things (i.e. NON-errors). These will be "big" changes for them - IMHO. I think they'd be more likely to (at least at first) - AFTER doing the basic sets - put together 2 09-date varieties sets (1 ea. for MS & proof) with the exact same coins that are in both varieties sets now - of course I could be wrong

sonofagunk

Question was asked on 6/03, answer "after all the full sets are complete"
Question was asked on 4/03, answer "after all the full sets are complete"

well I guess these are all "full sets" since they were already added
Walking Liberty Half Dollars Late Date Set, Circulation Strikes (1933-1947)
Walking Liberty Half Dollars Short Set, Circulation Strikes (1941-1947)
Kennedy Half Dollars Silver Short Set, Circulation Strikes (1964-1970)
Kennedy Half Dollars Silver Short Set, Proof (1964-1970)
Jefferson Nickels Basic War Set, Circulation Strikes (1942-1945)
Jefferson Nickels War Set with Varieties, Circulation Strikes (1942-1945)
Arkansas Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1935-1939)
Boone Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1934-1938)
Carver-Washington Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1951-1954)
Oregon Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1926-1939)
Panama-Pacific Set, Circulation Strikes (1915)
Texas Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1934-1938)
Booker T. Washington Half Dollar Set, Circulation Strikes (1946-1951)
Olympics Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1983-1984)
Statue of Liberty Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1986)
Constitution Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1987)
Olympiad Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1988)
Congress Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1989)
Mount Rushmore Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1991)
Columbus Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1992)
Olympiad Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1992)
Bill of Rights Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1993)
World War II Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1993)
World Cup Soccer Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1994)
U.S. Veterans Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1994)
Civil War Battlefield Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1995)
Olympics Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proofs (1995-1996)
Smithsonian Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1996)
Jackie Robinson Modern Commemoratives, Circulation Strikes and Proof (1997)

redcents

Paul,

Thanks for the update.

I guess it was asked & answered already in the past - I was just wondering if the answer changed yet (as to the timing). Don't know why they want to put Lincolns on the bottom of the list.

mozeppa

yeah!


most people start coin collecting with the lowly penny...(some of us never grow out of it,but hey...whatever makes you happy!)

I wish someone would re-ask the question again,( I never have any luck getting a response)

It would be great to have registry sets that have a little more of a gap between the sets in relation to their "% complete"

instead of 10 or so sets at 100% complete and the next 30 sets at 99% complete (o-k I exaggerated...a little) but it won't be long
until that will be the truth.

right now the registry only lists the errors for lincoln cents that most people can acquire with not a great amout of dificulty.

I don't know all the listings for the Lincolns ...but in addition to the ones already mentioned....

yes ALL the 1982's should be listed (after all it was the most radical metal change in the entire history of copper coinage) except 1943
which apparently didn't take.
they recognize the 44 D/S .........why not the 46 S/D ? have you tried to locate one of those?

all three wide AM's

how about the close AM on the 92-D ? ( I ain't seen but ONE of those)

and Just to make it more dificult.... lets recognize and list more of the collectable doubled dies.

and more of the more graphic re-punched mintmarks

maybe i'm just being a little over the top but.....what is a variety collection ...if it don't have more variety to it?

its not much a variety set if theres little variety to it ...and everyone can get em!


I might be wrong ...just a thought.... besides if it happens ....i already have most of em.

redcents

Mike,

I'm with you 110%

p.s. There was a 92-D close AM on eBay a week or so ago. Manorcourtman bought it for $1,000. I hear the seller has AT LEAST 1 other.

lincolnSence

Some of my thoughts on registry set configuration. Basic sets - well, pretty easy. Don't understand why it takes so long for PCGS to get it together. Do we need an 09 - 2003 set, sure we do. As for varieties, same old comment for me - if you certify it, then include it.

Now for some specific comments. I think the NGC registry is a joke. Without the notion of all time finest recognition, why bother???????? They have accomplished more than PCGS with their weighting system, but can't capitalize on participation like PCGS. David L. is also inconsistent in his application of which coins go in and which do not. For example, David says that for a coin to be included it must have a pop of at least 5 (both services). When I called him to ask why the 1969S was not included his response was "the collectors don't really want these coins included". Translation - they are to hard to collect. This is garbage logic. The basic set is in my opinion where everybody can compete as all coins are readily available (for a price of course). When it comes to varieties sets, all the stops should be pulled out to determine who has the depth and breath of the series. So what if there is only ONE coin certified? In that case, give it the highest weighting.

Just my opinion.

redcents

Rich,

Sounds like a plan. I'm in complete agreement. Guess we'll be seeing the 58DD in there one day

Steve

Just to weigh in one more time. I think my issue with the Lincoln cent registry is what is currently considered the "basic" set. That set , IMHO, SHOULD include the 1922 no "D" strong reverse, the 1944 D/S, the 1955, 1972, 1983, 1984 & 1995 DD's, the 1960 & 1970 small dates. In todays collecting world these are generally recognized as part of the Lincoln cent collection. They are included in almost all price guides. They are achievable (at a price). I then believe we should have a varieties set. Something like Mike Lumpkin has. People would register there IF they desire to collect these kind of varieties as reported in Wexler & Flynn and other books. But those of us who chose NOT to collect other than major error coins would not have to be satified with never getting to 100% in the registry. Steve

redcents

BJ Just Responded:

"Roger,

David Hall has agreed that we should add these complete sets (CS and PR). This will be addressed after we get through the type sets, so depending on how quickly we get through the type sets, it may not happen until next Spring/Summer. In the meantime, your patience would be appreciated.

Thank you.

BJ"

sonofagunk

Yup, same reply that they always give. "check back in a year or so".

Should just be a couple of lines added to a database, but ...

Steve

If it were "just a couple of lines added to the database" I'm sure BJ would have had it done already. I know it was a "big deal" when she had the 1909-1958 complete wheat proof set added. I'll remain patient. Steve

sonofagunk

not saying they are not working hard, but if it is more than adding a few more lines to the database, then their system is NOT set up very well and that is why they have to work so hard.

mozeppa

i can't wait!........i'm all squishey inside !