What Would You Think About a Registry Set W/O an FBL Bonus

Typetone

What do you think about the idea of a registry set where the FBL designation does not get a bonus? In a recent thread a number of member commented about whether the FBL designation should get so many bonus points. If we had a no bonus registry set that might refire the non-FBL market.

While this sounds like a strange idea, it is how most registry sets work. Consider Walkers for example. An MS66 with a weak strike gets the same weight in a set as an MS66 Walker with full hand.

I sent David Hall a question for this tuesday's Q&A. Let's give some of our opinions on this thread.

Greg

wondercoin

Greg: While I would support an increased value for non-FBL coins, I do believe the FBL are entitled to an appropriate bonus. On a related subject, I believe the FB dimes should have received a "1" bonus, not "2". The fact that beautiful MS68 silver Roosies worth $2k+ are being "valued" in the registry the same as $25 MS66FB coins is a concept I fail to understand. But, I don't make the rules here

Wondercoin

GQ

Well....my Five Cents worth. The registry is the best thing to come along in quite a while and I enjoy the way it is set up and the rules....but.....a Two point deduction for non Full-Step Jeffersons? Please don't tell me that a MS67 (that's Mint State) coin is not as nice as a MS65FS coin where a minute proportion of the reverse has little tiny lines in it but the coin is flatter and has more marks on it. Why is the coin put in the holder with the obverse showing? No offense here to the Full-Step gang....I belong to that club also....just my thought for the day.

Enjoy your coins....

NICKEL TRIUMPH NO STEPS

Typetone

Well, I was referring to Franklins, but the same concept could apply to Jeffs, Mercs, Roosies, or SLQs.

GReg

GQ

Well Greg....I didn't want to step on any Frankie toes....I am getting in this thread cheap....just a little venting from the nickel gallery.

wondercoin

Greg: If you tried to reduce the penalty for non - whatever in half, you might have a fighting chance and it would appear "fair" to nearly all concerned IMHO.

Good luck

Wondercoin

rainbowroosie

How about a five point bonus for coins which are strongly FBL or FT? How about a ten point bonus for the "best struck" FBL or FT coin out there?? Excuse my sarcasm, but this is lunacy especially for roosies.

While we are at it, why not a 100 point bonus for a well struck 1913 Lib Nickel? Or, a 1000 points for a 01S Barber? This is an arbitrary judgement with NO MERIT.

coolkarma

Again referring to nickels, there are a number of people who choose to collect non-cameo proof nickels. BNE and RGL both have excellent "Brilliant" collections in addition to their cameo collections,. Because they also like the appeal of non-cameo coins, they have set up second sets. Similar to GQ in nickels, you could set up a non-FBL set of Franklins. You wouldn't get to the top of the registry, but it would be making a statement. Of course, it's unlikely to fire up the non-FBL market.

With respect to bonuses, I would prefer to see an algorithm to decide what any bonus should be. Something that included population reports (how ever imperfect), initial mintages, and perhaps other factors, but not current sales prices. I think that would make large and small bonuses more palatable, at least to me. Just as some of the full-strike bonuses may be too high, some of the first-strike/cameo bonuses are too small (e.g., any 1936-1942 proof nickel in cameo is incredibly rare, but only receives a single bonus point).

Good luck with your question for David Hall - I went 0 for 2 last week.

Richard

cladking

So long as any set can be listed in both (or all) categories there doesn't seem
to be a real problem with it. The greatest weakness is that there probably wouldn't
be a lot of interest in it. Almost every collector I know seeks good strikes. Maybe
we need a poll?

tradedollarnut

Almost every collector I know seeks good strikes

I would never pay a premium for a full strike designation when I can get one 1% less fully struck for no premium. Do I want good strikes - yes. But that's not what is being talked about....

khayse

Greg,

I agree with your idea. I've thought about collecting non-FBL frankies but would never
register them (not interested in having a set in 40th place). If there was a set where
only the numerical part of the grade was considered I would join it.

-KHayse

Typetone

Mitch:

I'm not proposing a modification of the current set, but a second set where strike designation does not matter. If one point is the right bonus for the FBL weighted set, then we should lobby to get the current one changed. I think a lot of people would play the non-FBL set. It might even become the most popular of the two.

Greg

bushmaster8

Greg- that is an absolutely superb idea! But I will bet you a nice white MS65 non-FBL Frankie that David Hall (Blessed Be His Name) will shoot you down.

MadMonk

That's a great Idea...When I started collecting Franklins, FBL was the least of my worries. I wanted eye appeal, color, originality. There have been too many times that I had to pull out a loupe to see a supposed FBL. If I can't see it with my naked eye, 100% of the time, it ain't worth a premium to me.

Cocoinut

I'm in agreement with some of the others here who think it's a good idea. I have a good start on a Franklin set, but won't register it, because it contains some non-FBL coins that I have no intention of replacing. I'd much rather have an eye-appealing, nearly fully struck coin without paying a huge premium for a minute difference that's only discernable with a loupe. The set that Greg proposes could provide a sorely needed shot in the arm to Franklins.

Jim

rainbowroosie

I must be "mad" because I totally collect like Mad Monk!!

LucyBop

<< <i>a minute difference that's only discernable with a loupe. >>



I read this over and over and over so it must really be a problem for folks.......
I find FBL is easily seen and no loope is needed...... This is a big coin and the bell is a big
device.... unlike the full torch or fsb on a Winged Liberty.....

Now this image is blown-up however, the Bell Lines on the actual coin (ms66fbl 51d) are so bold they can cut!

Cocoinut

Lucy,

The '51-D typically has some of the strongest bell lines of any coin in the series. It's when you get to some of the later dates when the lines are less distinct, particularly near the crack in the bell, that it becomes more difficult to distinguish a FBL coin from one that's "almost there".

Jim

FC57Coins

Maybe the real question that we should be addressing is relative rarity of the coins in question. I think that assigning a 2 point bonus to an FBL coin is a cop out because as many of you have mentioned, the relative rarity of an MS66 coin is certainly more than the relative rarity of an MS64FBL in many cases. Having said that - you also have to remember that we are looking at one aspect of the spectrum, which is MS66 coins which are non-FBL due to lack of striking pressure. There are coins which were originally FBL where a poorly placed ding across the bell lines ruined the coin. So, now you're faced with the dilema of looking at a coin which, while otherwise perfectly struck, has a significant flaw which would keep it away from a full gem specimen.

It's a tough decision and to be sure, there are flaws in the rating system. I have a much bigger concern with the relative rarity values given to 60's Franklins as opposed to those in the 50's. But again, you have to look at the relative rarity of a common, sub MS64 coin versus those that go MS64FBL or above.

For the time being I think the entire registry thing should be taken with a grain of salt. Would you rather have an ugly MS66FBL, or a pretty MS65FBL or MS66? The question will depend on each individual collector, and ultimately we'll go around in circles forever. The Full Bell Line designation should stay as the pre-eminent sign that a Franklin is fully struck. It's up to us collectors to show that there are very desirable MS66 and MS65 coins out there which, while not fully struck on the bell lines, still command respect as a relatively rare commodity. And if you don't believe me, open up an original roll of 48D-53D, or just about any mint set from the 60's and see if you don't cringe at the poor treatment poor Ben has endured!

Frank

rainbowroosie

Lucy,
your post illustrates the REAL problem...I fully agree a well struck frankie with clear lines can be seen by anyone...what can NOT BE DISCERNED are the marginal mushy strikes/lines being encapsulated and labelled as being FBL.

LucyBop

Cocoinut,
I'm well aware that the 51d is the boldest of strikes and I have often mentioned that in other threads.. Which is also why I used a picture of one. Many others have often said that they have diffulculty in seeing the FBL. I am merely saying this hasn't been a issue for me,
I find FBL very easy to see regardless of the year of Franklin, even on my ex-53s FBL coin, I didn't need a loupe to see the bell lines.
But eveybody is different abd I have the benefit of great eyesight I suppose....

LucyBop

RainbowRoosie, I'll disagree with your statement as well. Being one that has literally looked at thousand of graded and raw Franklins, FBL for me is very easy to see. Even on mushy strikes, if I found that I need a loupe to see FBL then I wouldn't be to 'hep' on this designation but again, I found it very easy to discern. Not trying to argue with any of you cats, this is just my position on it, and I like the REgistry for Franklins just the way it is. But with that said, I also wouldn't mind seeing something to cause the non-FBL GEMs to gain some value.

MadMonk

<< <i>Lucy,
your post illustrates the REAL problem...I fully agree a well struck frankie with clear lines can be seen by anyone...what can NOT BE DISCERNED are the marginal mushy strikes/lines being encapsulated and labelled as being FBL. >>



yea, that's what I said as well. Too many non FBL coins in FBL holders. No consistency. there is where the loupe comes in. Toned coins can be sometimes difficult to see as well.

bushmaster8

Rainbowroosie & Madmonk are correct. (But I still love you anyway hepkitty) There are too many Franklins in FBL holders that are NO-WAY FBL's .

Early on , when the FBL designation was introduced, PCGS was way too liberal with the designation. I have a 60-P FBL in my Registry set that is absolutely laughable. There is a good 1/4 inch of lines totally missing! And I have heard of people sending coins such as this in to have them reholdered as non-FBL's. It is common knowledge that the FBL standard has been much tighter at PCGS the last few years.

I once heard a big time dealer on a cell phone at a show. He was allegedly talking to Rick Montgomery.
(The dealer paraphrased Rick's side of the conversation for me after he hung up). The conversation went like this:

Dealer--" Rick, I just got these Franklin grades and I think you goofed up, they are supposed to be FBL's"

RM--"Well, the graders did not see it that way."

Dealer--"Well if that is the case, I guess I am going to have to send all of those 1954-S's back to you to have the designation removed at PCGS's expense under the grade guarantee."

RM--" We will take another look at the coins you are calling about, they have not been shipped to you yet".

The dealer then hung up the phone with a big smile on his face. Of course , there are those that will say this must have been a fake phone call the dealer staged in order to impress me. However I dont think it was staged!

BTW- this overheard conversation also shot to hell (in my mind) the claim that the graders do not know who's coins they are grading.

LucyBop

<< <i>(But I still love you anyway hepkitty) >>



and thats all that matters!!!!!

jonesy

good idea!!

MadMonk

ttt cause I yhink this is an important issue

cosmicdebris

Greg I agree!