Prior to PCGS there were certainly many more grades than 4 or 5. PCGS did not invent the single point system from 60 through 69. I submit that many top graders 10 years before PCGS were using a 9 point system.
I was certainly not in the upper tier of graders back in 1975-77, but I used MS grades of 60, 60+, 60++, 60+++, 65, 65+, 65++. Essentially every grade from 60 to 66. There was no 61, 62, 64, or 66 on paper, but believe me, there was a need to break it down to this level, and many people did. I'm not sure when 63 came into the vernacular but we had a name for it nontheless. I did not understand the monster gems back then so even though I did not have a way to show an ultra monster gem (67 and higher). The best graders did. And they paid double and triple premiums for ultra high end coins that I just did not understand. Even that far back (or further), the upper tier dealers and collectors were breaking down the system into fine points. UNC, CH UNC, and Gem UNC just didn't cover it. It was needed so the dealers adopted it.
No I don't NEED the services to tell me when a coin has such and such designation, but, it allows me to limit my focus to the coins I am most interested in.
If I want a FBL half, a FB mercury, a DMPL or PL Morgan then I don't have to look at every single one that comes along - I can use my time more fruitfully, e.g, if I want a 1949 Franklin w/FBL I can just about pick up any; however, if I want a 1963 Franklin w/FBL then I don't need to look at every one minted - the FBLs are limited. Those of us who don't have the luxury of unlimited searching do find value in some of the designations.
I began to realize that the premiums paid for strike designations were a farce when I saw a 1945 Merc in PCGS MS65 with almost full split bands sell for a few hundred dollars on ebay. The bands were rounded and almost complete all the way across. I also had a MS67 SLQ that with the naked eye looked FH, but it sold for 1/3 the price of a FH coin. In my mind, there should not be 100x or even 3x premiums for something that requires a magnifying glass to differentiate. To me, itt's all about EYE APPEAL, not whether a gnat has its legs crossed or uncrossed!
What I would be comfortable with is a generic FullStrike designation for those series that are prone to weakness of strike. This FS designation should encompass the entire coin, obv as well as rev and even the edge if it were to matter, and we would need the hot areas spelled out as well as the %-age of fullness to qualify. The %-age applies to the ENTIRE coin, not just the hot areas. Examples:
Series: MS Walker 50C Hot Areas: obv center, from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock; rev breast feathers and talons %-age: 95
Series: Draped Bust LE Dollars Hot Areas: Denticles; obv braids, drapery; rev stars, clouds %-age: 75
<< <i>Ideally coins would be graded consistently to very narrow discrete levels which would have bid and ask prices at each level. This is, of course, virtually impossible using the current system. >>
It's virtually impossible because no one can "grade" to that accuracy consistantly. In fact, I don't think they can with TODAYS system. So if no one can grade CONSISTANTLY to that accuracy then why is there huge price difference between grades? Because there is a perception that the plastic will protect you from this. This then creates wide disparities in prices so the grading service becomes party to nothing more that a "fishing experiment" to see who can get the highest grade possible on a particular coin. It's quite a viscious cycle. IMO, that is the downside to the services. It's not that they were originally designed as such but I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact the services were created for dealers and NOT necessarily created to protect the "unwary"....or so the "party line" says anyway.
<< <i>This FS designation should encompass the entire coin, >>
Yes, I agree with this. This would be helpful I suppose and FAR better than what we have now...if you want to work within the current system we have anyway....
I like EVP's idea of a "premium strike" concept as so few coins are in fact Fully Struck....that is 100% with every talon, hair strand, feather, rivet, band, denticle, star point, sandal strap, etc.
TDN, with full band 1945 dimes going for $5000- and up, I would be happy to pay say $300 for a gem 95% struck 1945 dime if I collected that series. I guess the final price depends on where the coin sits in the census. A non-FB 1945 that's in the top 1% tier ought to be worth a hefty premium. And we both know that a number of FB certified 1945's are not 100% FB nor 95% fully struck.
I agree with your comments on the 1945 Mercury... it is easy to lose sight of a coin's value based upon what the plastic may say... its perception which can be a double edge sword.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
<< <i>"But now, especially on modern series, in which nearly ALL the coins are common, there is a specific attempt to create a perceived rarity, and I think the purpose is twofold: To require coins that are common to be submitted for grading so that we can be "informed" whether we are the proud possessors of a common coin with a rare "trait"; and so that these common coins can be sold to a naive coin collecting public who simply don't take the time to determine whether there is really anything of significance which would justify paying a (substantial) premium for what is in all likelihood a common coin."
YOU WENT OFF TOPIC WITH THAT. >>
Wondercoin- No, I was not off topic at all: The topic was:
<< <i>Why do we need the grading services to tell us . . . Whether a coin has Full Bands (FB), Full Bell Lines (FL) Full Steps (FS), Full Head (FH) Full Torch (FT) - Have I forgotten any of the special designations (Acented Hair? AH?) that unless, I'm missing something, can be determined if we simply take the time to LOOK. >>
My Comment quoted above was a possible answer as to why the grading services (and some Dealers also) need to tell us this information. There may be other possible answers, but this seems to be one of the significant motivations to provide these designations for a specific coin series, and with regard to modern coins, perhaps the most significant reason. If a perceived need can be created, more coins will be submitted to be graded for the "collector's needs".
With regard to your "offer" to pay significant money for coins which you have a specific need, I have 3 comments:
1. Your "offer" would be better directed to PCGS, as I do not put coins in PCGS holders, no matter what my opinion as to its grade might be.
2. Your "offer" may be generous, but I believe it to be facetious, more in the nature of B. Max Mehl's standing offer to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel: it was an offer that he would never have to make good on and he knew it. BTW Mehl made that offer for publicity and marketing purposes. I presume that you know the availability (or lack thereof) for the grade which you have requested for each of the coins you have requested. None of the coins designated is a rare coin, although a PCGS holder with a paper insert containing an OPINION as to the particular coin's grade may be very rare. I don't specifically collect State Quarters, although I have rolls of many of the different coins which I have set aside for my grandchildren - I have no compelling need to grade them. All are gem uncirculated, some nicer than others, depending on the number of marks which may have resulted during the manufacture, bagging & wrapping process. But whether, PCGS (or any other grading service) calls them MS66, 67, 68, 69 or 70 is of no great consequence to me, & other than a profit motive, I'm not sure why it would be of any significance to you there are millions of these coins available. You indicate a need to have 2 State Quarters, for which you are willing to pay as much as $10K. For $10K, you can have 416 coins graded by PCGS at $24/coin. Might I suggest that you select 208 of the nicest Denver mint DELAWARE Quarters that you are able to accurately grade and 208 of the nicest Denver mint PENNSYLVANIA state quarters, submit them to PCGS, and if you're lucky you may get your MS68's. I am quite certain, based on your knowledge of these two specific coins, that you have sufficient grading skills to select only the highest quality examples that you would either put in your collection or sell to your customers. (Or you could use the money to buy a few lottery tickets, or head to Las Vegas & use the money at the Slot machines. I'm told that the payoffs in both instances are significantly greater.) There may be a small risk if you're successful. If you happened upon a "gem" roll and 20 or 30 MS68s (or even a few 69s) suddenly showed up in the Pop reports, none of them would be worth the $5,000 which you are offering per coin, as in addition to being a common coin, they would then also be a common coin graded in MS68. So success could be your biggest risk.
3. Your discussion of rarity (or the perceived rarity) of high grade modern coins was definately "OFF TOPIC".
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
My Comment quoted above was a possible answer as to why the grading services (and some Dealers also) need to tell us this information. There may be other possible answers, but this seems to be one of the significant motivations to provide these designations for a specific coin series, and with regard to modern coins, perhaps the most significant reason. If a perceived need can be created, more coins will be submitted to be graded for the "collector's needs". >>
The fact that the grading services refused to grade modern coins for years because they too percieved them to have no value is continually glossed over. Another pert- inent fact being ignored is that the grading services were doind land office business in moderns BEFORE the clad Roosies got the designation.
<< <i> With regard to your "offer" to pay significant money for coins which you have a specific need, I have 3 comments:
1. Your "offer" would be better directed to PCGS, as I do not put coins in PCGS holders, no matter what my opinion as to its grade might be. >>
PCGS does not produce coins. Indeed, they don't even search through rolls and bags seeking the high grade except as a paid service for others.
<< <i> 2. Your "offer" may be generous, but I believe it to be facetious, more in the nature of B. Max Mehl's standing offer to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel: it was an offer that he would never have to make good on and he knew it. BTW Mehl made that offer for publicity and marketing purposes. I presume that you know the availability (or lack thereof) for the grade which you have requested for each of the coins you have requested. None of the coins designated is a rare coin, although a PCGS holder with a paper insert containing an OPINION as to the particular coin's grade may be very rare. I don't specifically collect State Quarters, although I have rolls of many of the different coins which I have set aside for my grandchildren - I have no compelling need to grade them. All are gem uncirculated, some nicer than others, depending on the number of marks which may have resulted during the manufacture, bagging & wrapping process. But whether, PCGS (or any other grading service) calls them MS66, 67, 68, 69 or 70 is of no great consequence to me, & other than a profit motive, I'm not sure why it would be of any significance to you there are millions of these coins available. You indicate a need to have 2 State Quarters, for which you are willing to pay as much as $10K. For $10K, you can have 416 coins graded by PCGS at $24/coin. Might I suggest that you select 208 of the nicest Denver mint DELAWARE Quarters that you are able to accurately grade and 208 of the nicest Denver mint PENNSYLVANIA state quarters, submit them to PCGS, and if you're lucky you may get your MS68's. I am quite certain, based on your knowledge of these two specific coins, that you have sufficient grading skills to select only the highest quality examples that you would either put in your collection or sell to your customers. (Or you could use the money to buy a few lottery tickets, or head to Las Vegas & use the money at the Slot machines. I'm told that the payoffs in both instances are significantly greater.) There may be a small risk if you're successful. If you happened upon a "gem" roll and 20 or 30 MS68s (or even a few 69s) suddenly showed up in the Pop reports, none of them would be worth the $5,000 which you are offering per coin, as in addition to being a common coin, they would then also be a common coin graded in MS68. So success could be your biggest risk. >>
No doubt Wondercoin will want to answer for himself but you are very much mistaken and completely out of the modern loop if you think any of the offers aren't legitimate.
You also need to take a look at the "gems" you've set aside. These coins will almost all have gouges and scratches on them. Many will be obliquely struck from worn dies. I save all the gems I find in rolls and less than 1% go gem and I've never found an MS-66 in the many rolls I've searched.
Do take a look at a few of these and while you're doing it keep in mind that mint quality has soared in the last few years. Then check those 73-D's if you can find them.
We don't need the grading services to give us this info. They have done it so they can get paid to tell us. Collectors and dealers have been aware of strike attributes long before the services were around. I've acquired this knowledge from attending coin shows, talking to dealers and specialists of each series. To me that's what the hobby is about, dealing and learning from others, self education and developing relationships with other people with the same interests. That is Numismatics, not what a piece of plastic says or doesn't say. They are not doing it for the hobby, but self interest (MONEY).
Comments
Prior to PCGS there were certainly many more grades than 4 or 5.
PCGS did not invent the single point system from 60 through 69.
I submit that many top graders 10 years before PCGS were using a 9 point system.
I was certainly not in the upper tier of graders back in 1975-77, but I used MS grades of 60, 60+, 60++, 60+++, 65, 65+, 65++. Essentially every grade from 60 to 66. There was no 61, 62, 64, or 66 on paper, but believe me, there was a need to break it down to this level, and many people did. I'm not sure when 63 came into the vernacular but we had a name for it nontheless. I did not understand the monster gems back then so even though I did not have a way to show an ultra monster gem (67 and higher). The best graders did. And they paid double and triple premiums for ultra high end coins that I just did not understand. Even that far back (or further), the upper tier dealers and collectors were breaking down the system into fine points. UNC, CH UNC, and Gem UNC just didn't cover it. It was needed so the dealers adopted it.
roadrunner
No I don't NEED the services to tell me when a coin has such and such designation, but, it allows me to limit my focus to the coins I am most interested in.
If I want a FBL half, a FB mercury, a DMPL or PL Morgan then I don't have to look at every single one that comes along - I can use my time more fruitfully, e.g, if I want a 1949 Franklin w/FBL I can just about pick up any; however, if I want a 1963 Franklin w/FBL then I don't need to look at every one minted - the FBLs are limited. Those of us who don't have the luxury of unlimited searching do find value in some of the designations.
It's not a matter of need, but of convenience.
Series: MS Walker 50C
Hot Areas: obv center, from 12 o'clock to 6 o'clock; rev breast feathers and talons
%-age: 95
Series: Draped Bust LE Dollars
Hot Areas: Denticles; obv braids, drapery; rev stars, clouds
%-age: 75
EVP
How does one get a hater to stop hating?
I can be reached at evillageprowler@gmail.com
I think I would stop collecting them if they did.
I don't need any hype added to my series or the prices to have a reason to increase.
-KHayse
<< <i>Ideally coins would be graded consistently to very narrow discrete levels which would have bid and ask prices at each level. This is, of course, virtually impossible using the current system. >>
It's virtually impossible because no one can "grade" to that accuracy consistantly. In fact, I don't think they can with TODAYS system. So if no one can grade CONSISTANTLY to that accuracy then why is there huge price difference between grades? Because there is a perception that the plastic will protect you from this. This then creates wide disparities in prices so the grading service becomes party to nothing more that a "fishing experiment" to see who can get the highest grade possible on a particular coin. It's quite a viscious cycle. IMO, that is the downside to the services. It's not that they were originally designed as such but I don't see how anyone can argue against the fact the services were created for dealers and NOT necessarily created to protect the "unwary"....or so the "party line" says anyway.
<< <i>This FS designation should encompass the entire coin, >>
Yes, I agree with this. This would be helpful I suppose and FAR better than what we have now...if you want to work within the current system we have anyway....
jom
rivet, band, denticle, star point, sandal strap, etc.
TDN, with full band 1945 dimes going for $5000- and up, I would be happy to pay say $300 for a gem 95% struck 1945 dime if I collected that series. I guess the final price depends on where the coin sits in the census. A non-FB 1945 that's in the top 1% tier ought to be worth a hefty premium. And we both know that a number of FB certified 1945's are not 100% FB nor 95% fully struck.
roadrunner
I almost decided to buy the coin.... but then again, I don't do much fishing!
I agree with your comments on the 1945 Mercury... it is easy to lose sight of a coin's value based upon what the plastic may say... its perception which can be a double edge sword.
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Camelot
<< <i>"But now, especially on modern series, in which nearly ALL the coins are common, there is a specific attempt to create a perceived rarity, and I think the purpose is twofold: To require coins that are common to be submitted for grading so that we can be "informed" whether we are the proud possessors of a common coin with a rare "trait"; and so that these common coins can be sold to a naive coin collecting public who simply don't take the time to determine whether there is really anything of significance which would justify paying a (substantial) premium for what is in all likelihood a common coin."
YOU WENT OFF TOPIC WITH THAT. >>
Wondercoin- No, I was not off topic at all: The topic was:
<< <i>Why do we need the grading services to tell us . . . Whether a coin has Full Bands (FB), Full Bell Lines (FL) Full Steps (FS), Full Head (FH) Full Torch (FT) - Have I forgotten any of the special designations (Acented Hair? AH?) that unless, I'm missing something, can be determined if we simply take the time to LOOK. >>
My Comment quoted above was a possible answer as to why the grading services (and some Dealers also) need to tell us this information. There may be other possible answers, but this seems to be one of the significant motivations to provide these designations for a specific coin series, and with regard to modern coins, perhaps the most significant reason. If a perceived need can be created, more coins will be submitted to be graded for the "collector's needs".
With regard to your "offer" to pay significant money for coins which you have a specific need, I have 3 comments:
1. Your "offer" would be better directed to PCGS, as I do not put coins in PCGS holders, no matter what my opinion as to its grade might be.
2. Your "offer" may be generous, but I believe it to be facetious, more in the nature of B. Max Mehl's standing offer to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel: it was an offer that he would never have to make good on and he knew it. BTW Mehl made that offer for publicity and marketing purposes. I presume that you know the availability (or lack thereof) for the grade which you have requested for each of the coins you have requested. None of the coins designated is a rare coin, although a PCGS holder with a paper insert containing an OPINION as to the particular coin's grade may be very rare. I don't specifically collect State Quarters, although I have rolls of many of the different coins which I have set aside for my grandchildren - I have no compelling need to grade them. All are gem uncirculated, some nicer than others, depending on the number of marks which may have resulted during the manufacture, bagging & wrapping process. But whether, PCGS (or any other grading service) calls them MS66, 67, 68, 69 or 70 is of no great consequence to me, & other than a profit motive, I'm not sure why it would be of any significance to you there are millions of these coins available. You indicate a need to have 2 State Quarters, for which you are willing to pay as much as $10K. For $10K, you can have 416 coins graded by PCGS at $24/coin. Might I suggest that you select 208 of the nicest Denver mint DELAWARE Quarters that you are able to accurately grade and 208 of the nicest Denver mint PENNSYLVANIA state quarters, submit them to PCGS, and if you're lucky you may get your MS68's. I am quite certain, based on your knowledge of these two specific coins, that you have sufficient grading skills to select only the highest quality examples that you would either put in your collection or sell to your customers. (Or you could use the money to buy a few lottery tickets, or head to Las Vegas & use the money at the Slot machines. I'm told that the payoffs in both instances are significantly greater.) There may be a small risk if you're successful. If you happened upon a "gem" roll and 20 or 30 MS68s (or even a few 69s) suddenly showed up in the Pop reports, none of them would be worth the $5,000 which you are offering per coin, as in addition to being a common coin, they would then also be a common coin graded in MS68. So success could be your biggest risk.
3. Your discussion of rarity (or the perceived rarity) of high grade modern coins was definately "OFF TOPIC".
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
<< <i>
My Comment quoted above was a possible answer as to why the grading services (and some Dealers also) need to tell us this information. There may be other possible answers, but this seems to be one of the significant motivations to provide these designations for a specific coin series, and with regard to modern coins, perhaps the most significant reason. If a perceived need can be created, more coins will be submitted to be graded for the "collector's needs". >>
The fact that the grading services refused to grade modern coins for years because
they too percieved them to have no value is continually glossed over. Another pert-
inent fact being ignored is that the grading services were doind land office business
in moderns BEFORE the clad Roosies got the designation.
<< <i>
With regard to your "offer" to pay significant money for coins which you have a specific need, I have 3 comments:
1. Your "offer" would be better directed to PCGS, as I do not put coins in PCGS holders, no matter what my opinion as to its grade might be. >>
PCGS does not produce coins. Indeed, they don't even search through rolls and bags
seeking the high grade except as a paid service for others.
<< <i>
2. Your "offer" may be generous, but I believe it to be facetious, more in the nature of B. Max Mehl's standing offer to buy a 1913 Liberty nickel: it was an offer that he would never have to make good on and he knew it. BTW Mehl made that offer for publicity and marketing purposes. I presume that you know the availability (or lack thereof) for the grade which you have requested for each of the coins you have requested. None of the coins designated is a rare coin, although a PCGS holder with a paper insert containing an OPINION as to the particular coin's grade may be very rare. I don't specifically collect State Quarters, although I have rolls of many of the different coins which I have set aside for my grandchildren - I have no compelling need to grade them. All are gem uncirculated, some nicer than others, depending on the number of marks which may have resulted during the manufacture, bagging & wrapping process. But whether, PCGS (or any other grading service) calls them MS66, 67, 68, 69 or 70 is of no great consequence to me, & other than a profit motive, I'm not sure why it would be of any significance to you there are millions of these coins available. You indicate a need to have 2 State Quarters, for which you are willing to pay as much as $10K. For $10K, you can have 416 coins graded by PCGS at $24/coin. Might I suggest that you select 208 of the nicest Denver mint DELAWARE Quarters that you are able to accurately grade and 208 of the nicest Denver mint PENNSYLVANIA state quarters, submit them to PCGS, and if you're lucky you may get your MS68's. I am quite certain, based on your knowledge of these two specific coins, that you have sufficient grading skills to select only the highest quality examples that you would either put in your collection or sell to your customers. (Or you could use the money to buy a few lottery tickets, or head to Las Vegas & use the money at the Slot machines. I'm told that the payoffs in both instances are significantly greater.) There may be a small risk if you're successful. If you happened upon a "gem" roll and 20 or 30 MS68s (or even a few 69s) suddenly showed up in the Pop reports, none of them would be worth the $5,000 which you are offering per coin, as in addition to being a common coin, they would then also be a common coin graded in MS68. So success could be your biggest risk. >>
No doubt Wondercoin will want to answer for himself but you are very much mistaken
and completely out of the modern loop if you think any of the offers aren't legitimate.
You also need to take a look at the "gems" you've set aside. These coins will almost all
have gouges and scratches on them. Many will be obliquely struck from worn dies. I save
all the gems I find in rolls and less than 1% go gem and I've never found an MS-66 in the
many rolls I've searched.
Do take a look at a few of these and while you're doing it keep in mind that mint quality
has soared in the last few years. Then check those 73-D's if you can find them.