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So much for a weak Franklin market. PCGS e-collector newsletter reports a 1950 in MS67FBL realizes

image, Those weak Franklins are not experiencing any demand. Oh well, I guess some people need proof.
Quality coins will always be in demand and exceptional coins will always be in great demand, and this one transaction is certainly not indicative of the health of the overall Franklin series, but I don't see this series loosing popularity. The future is very bright. I think PR67CAM examples in the 1950's are a bargain at todays prices. Its a fantastic series to collect and I am enjoying it more and more with each day.

Comments

  • dbldie55dbldie55 Posts: 7,717 ✭✭✭✭✭
    The world knows, one coin makes the market. Hey, a Liberty Nickel sold for over 3 Million. The Liberty Nickel market must be out of this world. You must have missed wondercoin's thread about spending 1/4 of his allotment on Franklin's in the auctions.
    Collector and Researcher of Liberty Head Nickels. ANA LM-6053
  • You're missing the point. I guess you are not aware that Max Mehl revolutionized the hobby with his use of the 1913 Nickel. I suggest further reading on the subject.
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭
    Hmmm ... I can guess which set this coin is headed for, but know it is not mineimage
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • Everyone bashes a 1953-P Penny in a rare upper grade for going for $8K but $20K more for a $1.50 worth of silver is OK?

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Keep in mind that I could not tell whether it was one lone collector bidding $25k plus commish on the net and topping let's say a (very smart) reserve of $24,500, or more than one bidder. What I can tell you is there was no bidding whatsoever in the auction room on that coin.

    And, even though I have a large collection of MS Franklins and would LOVE to see a strong Franklin market, let me be the first to tell you that the MS Franklin market today is VERY weak. Important coins like the 1950(d) in PCGS-MS66FBL could not even find a home in that sale, reserved quite fairly by that dealer image

    Wondercoin.
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • StuartStuart Posts: 9,761 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Goooooooooooood Laaaaaaaaaaaaawd!!!! image

    Stuart

    Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal

    "Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
  • I am sure Lucy will make a 68FBL, if not , then the Pug (FC57) will. My money is that one of them will make a 67 or 68FBL, unless of course they bought it.image


  • << <i>let me be the first to tell you that the MS Franklin market today is VERY weak. Important coins like the 1950(d) in PCGS-MS66FBL could not even find a home in that sale, reserved quite fairly by that dealer >>



    Very well put Wondercoin.

    Brian- It doesn't take a rocket scientist to figure out your intentions. You hoped to use this thread as a shot at me, due to a previous thread about Franklin prices. I'm glad to read you join me in the collecting and appreciation of the Cameo Franklins. They are a beautiful coin with fabulous eye appeal. I'm quite certain you will enjoy those coins you acquire! Though there is absolutely no denying the fact that new coins are being "made" at a much faster rate than they are being acquired by new collectors. Supply exceeding demand will always decrease prices. That has been the case for the last 5 years and I wouldn't look for that to change in the near future.


    image
  • DCAMFRANKLIN:
    Obviously new coins are being made and there is no denying that, but there is also no denying that gradeflation has a finite threshold and that the supply of cameo franklins is limited in the early 1950's
    So if we discount NTC and the related maggots and stick to the high standards of PCGS and NGC and assume that they will not vary significantly, then obviously demand will outstrip supply for this wonderful series. Is this not the point? Obviously there is a threshold for high grade FBL examples as well.
    Can someone convince me with rational dialogue that demand for this series is shrinking? Why am I seeing collectors at shows chasing early proof sets and mint sets like the road runners. The answer is above.
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I am sure Lucy will make a 68FBL, if not , then the Pug (FC57) will. My money is that one of them will make a 67 or 68FBL, >>



    I thought I had the PCGs look for a seven holder with this one:'

    image

    This winner has the luster, toning and look of several ms67's I have owned.... PCGs, you'll see this one again...


    I am finding that I am not having to much diffulculty selling my High end GEM Franklins...... Some have taken longer then others, but I expected that because some are pricey.... I have found my ms64fbl material has moved the fastest. There was a time when you had two major buyers snapping up high end GEMs that i think carried the market for alittle while, those two players were myself and Woodie...

    But as my set got retired, there are others that step right in.... I get several new emails a week for Franklins from folks who read
    my posts but are not members of this site......

    New collectors are stepping in.......
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭
    My thoughts on the supply vs. demand thing.....

    If you have KILLER coins with extreme eye appeal and Dazzling colors (or even fully brilliant)......

    You can sell these coins for very decent prices........ Because these types of Franklins are indeed scarce, as opposed to the typical blah mint set toned coin........

    Some of my Killer Rainbowed coins went within minutes of listing them.... Where as some of my typical regular mint set toned ones
    I still have.....

    It comes down to the quality of the coin.. I have placed coins in the #5 set, the #18 set, and I even got one into Frankie da Pugs fine set.... Quality still demands a strong price....

    I have another very good customer who has aquired many wonderful high end GEMS from me, this gentleman isn't into the Registry
    sets, he merely gets them and enjoys them..... Nice quality coins has kept him a good customer...
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • While one coin certainly doesn't make the market, it does tell me that there's still enough interest in Gem Franklins to warrant record prices. You can't compare a '50 Franklin to a 1913 nickel or a 1953 cent for that matter. It is a recognized fact that Gem Franklins are quite rare and for a pop 1 coin to hit the market it will not only make a splash and be noticed, but also the Franklin community will feel the ripple effect of more collectors wondering about their sets and more new collectors taking an interest. With the 1953 cent you really don't know whether there are 1 or 51 in that condition. With the Franklin, because of the gyrations the series has been through, you know that a lot of people have tried to "make" coins and failed, so when one of these monsters comes up, it makes you take notice.

    Now, what has me wondering is the condition of the coin itself. I would very much like to see what it looks like. For those of you who collect high grade material, you know that the reason I say this is because a one point difference can sometimes be infinitesimally small. Does this coin have killer frost? Or killer toning? One thing that Jack Ehrmantraut's book points out is that for each year and mint mark in the series, there are prooflikes and killer - I mean KILLER - toned coins out there that dissapeared into major collections back in the 80's, before the big market boom. As such, if some of these coins are starting to come out, they would warrant both the grade and the prices.

    What I would hate to see is the constant re-submission by certain parties to hopefully get a 66.8 into a 67 slab. What you wind up with is the same coin with different plastic around it, and now, instead of a PQ coin, you have an overgraded coin. I don't know if these gaffs occur on purpose or not, but those of you who have dealt with grading services know that on any given day, any given coin can get a grade higher or lower. As such, it would not be out of the realm of possibility for this coin to be a PQ66 which had it's day in the sun.

    Let's hope that the grading was correct, and that the ripple effects on the series will be a positive one.

    Frank


  • << <i>

    << <i>I am sure Lucy will make a 68FBL, if not , then the Pug (FC57) will. My money is that one of them will make a 67 or 68FBL, >>



    I thought I had the PCGs look for a seven holder with this one:'

    image

    This winner has the luster, toning and look of several ms67's I have owned.... PCGs, you'll see this one again...

    Hey Lucy, I think I'll sell me Walkers and start collecting "FRANKIES"! NICE COIN!imageimageimageimage
  • dbldie55, How many 1913 Nickels are there, and how many 1950 Franklins? Bad example!
    You can fool man but you can't fool God! He knows why you do what you do!
  • Just because a pop 1 sells for a lot, doesn't mean the series is strong. Franklins look weak to me, CS and Proof. They have been on a long decline for about four years. Is this the bottom? Perhaps? I have a great set of proofs and an OK set of CS. I certainly hope prices strengthen, but that is a hope not a certainty. The main issue is that pops have exploded. So has demand, but not as much as pops.

    However, if you want to start a set, this is could be a great time. Certainly better than starting one 4 years or 2 years ago.

    Lucy is right. The blast white or beautifully toned pieces carry the demand. Try to buy those at small premiums if you can get them.

    Greg
  • I do agree that Frankie pops have really swelled in the last few years, particularly the 1960-Dimage

    (I can remember a time in 1986 when Leroy Lenhart (sp?) had nearly 50% of the entire population of PCGS MS65's in inventory!)

    But surely the population explosion must slow down at some point. The cardboard mint sets surely have a very finite number left to be tapped. (How about some guesses as to the number of those ORIGINAL mint sets that are still intact? I would venture 10-20%.)

    By the same token, how many nice original rolls can there be still unsearched?

    Even though the pops seem high in relation to the pops of, say, ten years ago; the pops are still miniscule when compared to Morgans. Granted, Morgans are far more popular than Frankies, but still...

    The one thing that is for SURE is this is a good time to buyimage
    "Wars are really ugly! They're dirty
    and they're cold.
    I don't want nobody to shoot me in the foxhole."
    Mary






    Best Franklin Website
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Keep in mind that I could not tell whether it was one lone collector bidding $25k plus commish on the net and topping let's say a (very smart) reserve of $24,500, or more than one bidder. What I can tell you is there was no bidding whatsoever in the auction room on that coin. >>



    I'll bet the moon it was one bidder. Same guy who bought the pop. 1 48P for about $28k at the last Baltimore by topping the reserve, same guy who bought the (then) pop. 1 54-D for $22,500, same guy who bought the pop. 2 54-D for about the same, same guy who bought the pop. 1 53S, same guy...same guy...same guy...



    << <i>And, even though I have a large collection of MS Franklins and would LOVE to see a strong Franklin market, let me be the first to tell you that the MS Franklin market today is VERY weak. Important coins like the 1950(d) in PCGS-MS66FBL could not even find a home in that sale, reserved quite fairly by that dealer image

    Wondercoin. >>



    The 50-D is a good example of weak prices. They sold within the last 2 years for as high as $11,000 and $13,000. I didn't look, but I'll bet the reserve was around $6000.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.


  • << <i>I'll bet the moon it was one bidder. >>

    Ronyahski, "I'll bet the moon" you would lose that bet. image

    That is all I'm at liberty to reveal at this time.
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Good, for the sake of the Franklin market, I'd love to lose the bet.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • LucyBopLucyBop Posts: 14,004 ✭✭✭
    ahhh..... the mystery.... the intrigue........
    imageBe Bop A Lula!!
    "Senorita HepKitty"
    "I want a real cool Kitty from Hepcat City, to stay in step with me" - Bill Carter
  • People are searching for the RARE ones out there. Some think that means only rare dates or mint marks. But they want those pop tops of ANY year because that makes all years rare.

    Watch your coins CLOSELY..... the rare ones climb through the roof. The ones that are not rare are moving along much slower. Such a thing is understandable..... but it makes the current market almost cut-throat. It is so easy to make a bad purchase right now and have to swallow a loss of a few thousand dollars.

    I think THAT is what caused such a price for that Frankie.... Heaven knows I would buy other frankies until the ends of the earth and submitted them before I would of paid THAT.

    Just be careful everyone.
    Alexandria Collection

    It is better to dwell in the corner of the housetop, than with a brawling woman and in a wide house. - Proverbs 25:24
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Ronyahski :Agreed. The #1 guy has an incredible collection of MS Franklins, worth a "small fortune". With that comes the difficult decision of "paying up" for the pop 1 coins that are made. Remember, it only takes -1- bidder to make a great price, not 2 these days (and hey - if another diehard collector stopped bidding precisely at the somewhat unusual bid of $24,500 before the winning collector bid his $25,000 to win the coin - I say that is an interesting bidding strategy on the #2 collector's part). And, I can assure you #1 is an astute and intelligent businessman as well as a sophistacated numismatist. This simply comes with the territory of owning the #1 set in a major catagory such as MS Franklins. There are MANY reasons to step up and buy a coin such as the 1950(p) WHEN YOU ARE SITING IN THE #1 SLOT - I am certainly not faulting him !! image Incidently, I was not a big fan of this 1950(p), that is about all I can say on that.

    #1 aside - the market is very soft right now, which I personally view as a great time to gobble up super coins at give-away prices. For example, I bought the 1959(d) color Frankie in that sale in the NGC-MS66 holder. The coin should grade PCGS-MS66FBL and might be among the coolest 1959(d) high grade color coins out there (they usually come white). I was personally expecting to win the coin around $3,000 (if at all) and it sold for $690 WITH THE COMMISSION!! The Franklins will be back and I personally see nothing wrong with the goal of "buying low" image

    Wondercoin






    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • Hope you are right on the 59-D. I have seen NGC tighter on the FBL standard but looser on grades in this series. Would not be surprised if PCGS views it as a 65FBL. Frankies are difficult to cross, even when deserving.

    Greg


  • << <i>Hey Lucy, I think I'll sell me Walkers and start collecting "FRANKIES"! >>


    imageimage
    image
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,552 ✭✭✭
    ... I have seen NGC tighter on the FBL standard but looser on grades in this series. Would not be surprised if PCGS views it as a 65FBL. Frankies are difficult to cross, even when deserving.

    Yes, typically .... while I have not seen an NGC FBL that would not cross to a PCGS FBL, many NGCs will not cross at the same grade into a PCGS holder. I have crossed several from NGC to PCGS holders at the same grade, and a few at the next grade (i.e., 65 to 66).
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "Hope you are right on the 59-D. I have seen NGC tighter on the FBL standard but looser on grades in this series. Would not be surprised if PCGS views it as a 65FBL. Frankies are difficult to cross, even when deserving. Greg"

    Greg: You are so right. But, PCGS will not be viewing this coin as a cross. Why should they? The coin is an all there 66FBL- of course per the PCGS standard. Hence, there is only one way to present it as far as I am concerned -raw image

    Wondercoin
    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    why can't the 59-D just remain in the NGC holder? ...Especially if it is already a 66FBL?

    anyway, this thread at least sparked enough interest to wander onto ebay to see how Franklins were doing there and it wasn't a pretty visit... not much in the way of activity and I thought the prices were reasonable to even cheap. BTW, I do not sell on ebay...

    Perhaps the Franklin market is near a bottom...hard to tell. Personally, I still think they are tough in 65 and higher w/FBL and perhaps undervalued. A full set in MS64 FBL can still be put together (with exception of a 53-s) without the financial concerns as with other coin series.

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • wondercoinwondercoin Posts: 16,649 ✭✭✭✭✭
    "why can't the 59-D just remain in the NGC holder? ...Especially if it is already a 66FBL?"

    Coinkat - It is not in an MS66FBL holder - you misread - I won an NGC-MS66 only at auction. image

    Wondercoin

    Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
  • coinkatcoinkat Posts: 22,721 ✭✭✭✭✭
    nevermind....imageimageimage

    Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.

  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>Ronyahski :Agreed. The #1 guy has an incredible collection of MS Franklins, worth a "small fortune". With that comes the difficult decision of "paying up" for the pop 1 coins that are made. Remember, it only takes -1- bidder to make a great price, not 2 these days (and hey - if another diehard collector stopped bidding precisely at the somewhat unusual bid of $24,500 before the winning collector bid his $25,000 to win the coin - I say that is an interesting bidding strategy on the #2 collector's part). And, I can assure you #1 is an astute and intelligent businessman as well as a sophistacated numismatist. This simply comes with the territory of owning the #1 set in a major catagory such as MS Franklins. There are MANY reasons to step up and buy a coin such as the 1950(p) WHEN YOU ARE SITTING IN THE #1 SLOT - I am certainly not faulting him !! image Incidently, I was not a big fan of this 1950(p), that is about all I can say on that. >>



    I think you said more between the lines than within the lines, and I think I caught 'em all. Also, I'm not a fan of the 48P, the 53S, the 54D, and a few more.



    << <i>#1 aside - the market is very soft right now, which I personally view as a great time to gobble up super coins at give-away prices. For example, I bought the 1959(d) color Frankie in that sale in the NGC-MS66 holder. The coin should grade PCGS-MS66FBL and might be among the coolest 1959(d) high grade color coins out there (they usually come white). I was personally expecting to win the coin around $3,000 (if at all) and it sold for $690 WITH THE COMMISSION!! The Franklins will be back and I personally see nothing wrong with the goal of "buying low" image

    Wondercoin >>



    Good luck with the 59D, one of my favorite dates (along with the 59P) to find in toned 66. Hopefully some absorb your observations and start gobbling. Some series go in cylces and it is a great time to be a buyer of Franklins.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • RonyahskiRonyahski Posts: 3,116 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>

    << <i>I'll bet the moon it was one bidder. >>

    Ronyahski, "I'll bet the moon" you would lose that bet. image

    That is all I'm at liberty to reveal at this time. >>



    Hey Mark - Do you owe me the moon? All the mystery and intrigue, yet check out the PCGS Registry, and there it is, the coin ends up in the same guy's collection as the rest of them. Ho hum.
    Some refer to overgraded slabs as Coffins. I like to think of them as Happy Coins.
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,485
    Ronyahski, I do not owe you the moon. image

    I wasn't betting it (the moon) on who would end up with the coin, only that more than one bidder was involved. I know what the reserve was and more than one bidder topped it.

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