Roger: Quite frankly, I would personally pay $22,500 for that coin sight-seen and I don't even collect Lincolns, so my guess is you simply bid too low for the coin.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
How did you arrive at that price Mitch? Is there even an auction record ANYWHERE for one of these in this grade? What was the last one you heard of that sold? When was that exactly?
Mitch, That coin was displayed at long beach at the Teletrade table. You could have viewed it. I saw the coin and it was gorgeous. I could really appreciate that coin once being a variety Lincoln collector. I was told that the owner had turned down a $16K offer at long beach for the coin. The owner felt it would sell for over $20K.
Uh, yeah, the 16k offer was from ME earlier this week since that was the top of their estimate range (but I'm told they rarely IF EVER pull items from auction - although in this case they DID ask the consignor if the offer was acceptable) & it was there 'cause I asked them to bring it (although they may have done so anyway whether or not I or someone else made the same request).
Redcents, That coin was beautiful and I almost bid on it tonight when the bid was at $17K. That would have been my max and obviously It would not have been enough. I chased one about 15 years ago and didn't get that one either. About the same time I was the underbidder in a private auction for a 1958 double die.
Thanks Nick for pointing that out. You can't do everything at a show. I do wish you would have mentioned that Lincoln to me - I would have suggested we split it.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
How is it that in another thread you imply it's crazy to spend upwards of 39k (or even 20k when "blended") for a pop 1 Lincoln (citing it as "one of the most EXTREME cases of "auction exhuberance" in the history of 20th century auction sales") and even are amazed at 10k for a similar pop coin that as you put it "... is roughly a 1000x jump between grades!!!!" and yet here you are going on record (post auction close) as being willing to spend 22 5 for a pop 3 coin that is not even a top pop that you apparently didn't even know was coming up for auction AND didn't bother to go see even though you were at the show?
What are your buy prices anyway for other 2nd from the top pop doubled dies e.g.? Or ANY other coins for that matter.
Nick,
I feel your pain. From the picture, it looked VERY nice & bright with oodles of luster. Way better than any 64 I've seen. Wish I had the you know what's to have gone higher but I put my max in with 10 seconds left & I even got a print out of my screen (a few seconds AFTER 10pm ET) saying the high bid was mine but apparently (at least) 2 others (gee I wonder who) put it higher ones just after me. I bet the winner's max was even more (perhaps by 5k) than the winning bid (but of course we might never know). I shouldn't have relied on Teletrades estimated range so much I guess. I did hear from at least 2 Lincoln experts that they thought 20k was a little high but from 2 others I didn't get any guidance as to the appropriate level (maybe they were the ones slugging it out). Anyway, maybe another will get made (like this one was less than 2 months ago) and it will be less than another 15 years before it goes on sale again - and perhaps 20k might be enought to get a pop 4. I wonder how much Mitch would pay then (if & when it goees to pop 4)???
It is EXTREMELY rare - TRULY (at least 100's of times more so than the 55 DD but only maybe 2-3 times as rare as the 71 DD). Cherrypickers (pg 135) says 9-16 exist (URS-5) althought the pops would lead you to beleive about 2-3 times that amount may exist (as many are crossovers & thus double/triple - or more - counted. PCGS has graded 27 (of which some are probably regrades that got (at least) double counted. NGC has only graded 5 & ANACS has only graded 2 in RD (I think they have graded some in BN or RB but for some reason only the RD's are reported in their pop report (on pg 67). The doubling is extremely heavy on all obverse lettering & numbers. The pops have had no sudden spikes over the years. In fact, my guess only, the one that just sold was probably in an NGC holder previously.
I'm sure there are many more knowledgeable than I that can elaborate on why it's so valuabe...
"MItch, How is it that in another thread you imply it's crazy to spend upwards of 39k (or even 20k when "blended") for a pop 1 Lincoln (citing it as "one of the most EXTREME cases of "auction exhuberance" in the history of 20th century auction sales") and even are amazed at 10k for a similar pop coin that as you put it "... is roughly a 1000x jump between grades!!!!" and yet here you are going on record (post auction close) as being willing to spend 22 5 for a pop 3 coin that is not even a top pop that you apparently didn't even know was coming up for auction AND didn't bother to go see even though you were at the show? What are your buy prices anyway for other 2nd from the top pop doubled dies e.g.? Or ANY other coins for that matter."
Roger: Fair enough question, although I am not crazy about your tone.
1. A dealer told me about the Teletrade coin on Friday at the show. He gave me a figure of what it would cost me to own the coin (presumably he either knew what the consignor expected to reserve or protect the coin to, or what the high bidder intended to bid, or who knows what - I have no idea - I simply heard the figure and moved on to making money in the Heritage auction) as that figure he gave me was well above my stated buy price for a sight-seen example. I, therefore, had no interest in pursuing the Teletrade coin further.
2. On Saturday afternoon I received a call from a collector who owns one of the other 1970(s) DDO coins in PCGS-MS65RD and he told me what the minimum amount was he desired on that coin for me to own it.
So, there you have it. And, yes, I still believe there is no comparison between the 70(s) DDO in gem and (2) ultra-modern proof coins in PR70, but, of course, I trust you may also feel that way as you sold off the proofs and are pursuing the DDO? But, enough of that for now
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
If someone doesn't like a pop top then he can simply buy a lower grade coin for less money. This is not so easy with a rare coin. While the number of people collecting memorial cents at any substantial premium is still low, it is much higher than the number of these available in any grade.
"...I do wish you would have mentioned that Lincoln to me..."
I'm sorry, I thought this meant that you DIDN"T know about it - my misinterpretation
If you can get me one for 22 5 I'm still a buyer Forgive my poetic license use of the word "crazy" - it was just a description of what I thought you - perhaps flippantly - thought of that price of the 63 in PR70DCAM - for lack of a better word. - Oh, & BTW, GOOD MORNIG
"If you can get me one for 22 5 I'm still a buyer"
Roger: This auction may be a classic example of doing your own homework, not asking anything to anybody (as you did) and not assuming anything you are told is 100% accurate (as I did)
BTW, I posted my $22.5k price BEFORE you edited your thread to include the $25k+ final closing price. I was simply working off the $20.9k price in the heading of this thread at the time I mentioned my figure. Obviously, I now may have a low chance to buy one at $22.5k when last public sale was $25k+ and one coin of the 3 is now possibly off the market.
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
True that - unless it's not quite as nice, perhaps.
p.s. Prior to last night's closing price, could it have been fair to say that a 22 5 # "was basically pulled out of "thin air" as there is no public trade history on the coin" (not that there's anything wrong with that ) or is there in fact something more recent than the 15 yr. time frame that Nick alluded to that I'm NOT aware of ? For myself, I figured about 20k 'cause the avg. for the 64's have been around $7,500 and the pop was WAY less than 1/2 (3 vs 14) - in fact less than 1/4, Teletrade's estimated range was 12-16k, what I previously mentioned about some others I spoke to, the fact that an NGC one was sold by Sam Lukes for about 22k (in 65RD - but he gets the strongest prices on these so I figured about 10% off that one would be conservative), the fact that one serious Lincoln guy said he was definitely going after it and another did not say he wasn't going after it. There is a lot of factors in trying to determine a fair, reasonable, and winning bid/price on something like this - and it's NOT easy. Of course, if someone wants it at any cost there's nothing you can do, but I beleive in this case I simply underestimated the level at which it would go for.
<< <i>Prior to last night's closing price, could it have been fair to say that a 22 5 # "was basically pulled out of "thin air" as there is no public trade history on the coin" >>
Wasn't $22.5K the reported selling price on an NGC MS65RD example recently? I've heard some speculation (OK I'll admit that I heard myself saying this) that the recently certified third PCGS MS65RD could very well be the same coin. I thought anything over $18K was nuts...the longer I stick around the less I know.
RELLA
Do not fall into the error of the artisan who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft while in fact he has had only one year of experience... twenty times.
My max bid was $19,000 (plus 10% if I won) for this: 
Comments
Wondercoin
saw the coin and it was gorgeous. I could really appreciate that coin once being a variety Lincoln
collector. I was told that the owner had turned down a $16K offer at long beach for the coin. The
owner felt it would sell for over $20K.
Nick
my max and obviously It would not have been enough. I chased one about 15 years ago and didn't get that one
either. About the same time I was the underbidder in a private auction for a 1958 double die.
Wondercoin
How is it that in another thread you imply it's crazy to spend upwards of 39k (or even 20k when "blended") for a pop 1 Lincoln (citing it as "one of the most EXTREME cases of "auction exhuberance" in the history of 20th century auction sales") and even are amazed at 10k for a similar pop coin that as you put it "... is roughly a 1000x jump between grades!!!!" and yet here you are going on record (post auction close) as being willing to spend 22 5 for a pop 3 coin that is not even a top pop that you apparently didn't even know was coming up for auction AND didn't bother to go see even though you were at the show?
What are your buy prices anyway for other 2nd from the top pop doubled dies e.g.? Or ANY other coins for that matter.
Nick,
I feel your pain. From the picture, it looked VERY nice & bright with oodles of luster. Way better than any 64 I've seen. Wish I had the you know what's to have gone higher but I put my max in with 10 seconds left & I even got a print out of my screen (a few seconds AFTER 10pm ET) saying the high bid was mine but apparently (at least) 2 others (gee I wonder who) put it higher ones just after me. I bet the winner's max was even more (perhaps by 5k) than the winning bid (but of course we might never know). I shouldn't have relied on Teletrades estimated range so much I guess. I did hear from at least 2 Lincoln experts that they thought 20k was a little high but from 2 others I didn't get any guidance as to the appropriate level (maybe they were the ones slugging it out). Anyway, maybe another will get made (like this one was less than 2 months ago) and it will be less than another 15 years before it goes on sale again - and perhaps 20k might be enought to get a pop 4.
I'm sure there are many more knowledgeable than I that can elaborate on why it's so valuabe...
I plan on breaking it out and buying a gumball with it. Hope I get red, it is my favorite.
Roger: Fair enough question, although I am not crazy about your tone.
1. A dealer told me about the Teletrade coin on Friday at the show. He gave me a figure of what it would cost me to own the coin (presumably he either knew what the consignor expected to reserve or protect the coin to, or what the high bidder intended to bid, or who knows what - I have no idea - I simply heard the figure and moved on to making money in the Heritage auction) as that figure he gave me was well above my stated buy price for a sight-seen example. I, therefore, had no interest in pursuing the Teletrade coin further.
2. On Saturday afternoon I received a call from a collector who owns one of the other 1970(s) DDO coins in PCGS-MS65RD and he told me what the minimum amount was he desired on that coin for me to own it.
So, there you have it. And, yes, I still believe there is no comparison between the 70(s) DDO in gem and (2) ultra-modern proof coins in PR70, but, of course, I trust you may also feel that way as you sold off the proofs and are pursuing the DDO? But, enough of that for now
Wondercoin
This is not so easy with a rare coin. While the number of people collecting memorial cents at
any substantial premium is still low, it is much higher than the number of these available in any
grade.
Incredibly, this wasn't true a few years ago!
That's VERY funny. I'm LOL
Mitch,
"...I do wish you would have mentioned that Lincoln to me..."
I'm sorry, I thought this meant that you DIDN"T know about it - my misinterpretation
If you can get me one for 22 5 I'm still a buyer
Forgive my poetic license use of the word "crazy" - it was just a description of what I thought you - perhaps flippantly - thought of that price of the 63 in PR70DCAM - for lack of a better word.
Thanks,
Roger
Roger: This auction may be a classic example of doing your own homework, not asking anything to anybody (as you did) and not assuming anything you are told is 100% accurate (as I did)
BTW, I posted my $22.5k price BEFORE you edited your thread to include the $25k+ final closing price. I was simply working off the $20.9k price in the heading of this thread at the time I mentioned my figure. Obviously, I now may have a low chance to buy one at $22.5k when last public sale was $25k+ and one coin of the 3 is now possibly off the market.
Wondercoin
p.s. Prior to last night's closing price, could it have been fair to say that a 22 5 # "was basically pulled out of "thin air" as there is no public trade history on the coin" (not that there's anything wrong with that
For myself, I figured about 20k 'cause the avg. for the 64's have been around $7,500 and the pop was WAY less than 1/2 (3 vs 14) - in fact less than 1/4, Teletrade's estimated range was 12-16k, what I previously mentioned about some others I spoke to, the fact that an NGC one was sold by Sam Lukes for about 22k (in 65RD - but he gets the strongest prices on these so I figured about 10% off that one would be conservative), the fact that one serious Lincoln guy said he was definitely going after it and another did not say he wasn't going after it. There is a lot of factors in trying to determine a fair, reasonable, and winning bid/price on something like this - and it's NOT easy. Of course, if someone wants it at any cost there's nothing you can do, but I beleive in this case I simply underestimated the level at which it would go for.
It's all Gerry's Fault !!!!!!!
for some people 3 is not enough
stewart
<< <i>Prior to last night's closing price, could it have been fair to say that a 22 5 # "was basically pulled out of "thin air" as there is no public trade history on the coin" >>
Wasn't $22.5K the reported selling price on an NGC MS65RD example recently? I've heard some speculation (OK I'll admit that I heard myself saying this) that the recently certified third PCGS MS65RD could very well be the same coin. I thought anything over $18K was nuts...the longer I stick around the less I know.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
I guess that means that Stewart bought another one!
I can't teach this guy to say Blay!
blay
Sorry, I'm not a programmer