CAM or NO CAM -- 42 Proof WLH

FrattLaw

This is the reason I bought this 1942 NGC PR66 Set in the Goldberg auction. I'm pretty good with cameo designations on more recent moderns, but on a WLH I am truly clueless. I'm thinking about submitting it to NGC for review @ LB tomorrow. It's actually better in person, my photography skills s*ck.

Opinions....did NGC miss the designation?




Thanks
Michael

Placid

This is as close to a cameo I could find. This coin I belive would have made cameo if the sun and reverse looked the same.

coinguy1

Michael, your coin does not appear to be a "Cameo". The major grading services are quite stingy with that designation on Proof Walkers and yours looks no more like a "Cameo" than literally hundreds (or thousands) of other non-Cameos I have seen - sorry.

Based on my observations of these coins, I would bet (sight-unseen) that the sun is not frosted and from your images, it appears that the lower right side of the obverse device and most of the reverse are lacking sufficient contrast.

It was good to see you at the show, though.

FrattLaw

Thanks Mark -- I'll have it with me in person tomorrow. When are you leaving the show? It actually looks much better in person. But I do note that NGC has only graded 1 in cameo and PCGS has (hmmm, I can't access the pop reports even though I'm a collector's club member) so I really don't know if PCGS has graded any.

But I can see what you mean about being stingy. I can't believe that there's only 1 out of thousands that NGC graded that they gave the designation to. I wonder why so tough on these. I'm not familiar with proof WLH, but if this was a Franklin, I would think it would make cameo.

Michael

coolkarma

FrattLaw,
Nice coin As I'm sure you know, NGC has only graded one Walker (a 1942) in cameo (and PCGS only five, 2-1938, 2-1939, and 1-1942) so the chances are very slim this will make cameo. It is very hard to tell from pictures, but the obverse looks like it has a chance at cameo, while the contrast on the reverse looks weak. When I compare my various "frosted" Walkers or look at potential purchases, on the obverse I look at how far down the skirt the frost goes (particularly for the back half of the skirt), the frost on the motto and date, the frost on the scandals, and the frost on the sun. Essentially, the lower half of the obverse. On the reverse, the "dimple" in the Eagle's wing is my favorite check point. Also worth examining is the other wing feathers where they touch the eagle's breast, e pluribus unum, and the most indented portion of the rock the eagle is standing on. Of course it is the mirrors that offer the contrast to the frost. On the obverse, the depth of mirrors is fairly easy to determine while it is more difficult on the reverse because there is so little mirrored surface.

Please note, I don't own any of the PCGS or NGC cameo designated walkers. I do have a half dozen slabbed (mostly PCGS) frosted walkers, that were slabbed before PCGS or NGC would designate walkers as cameo. They can be very impressive to behold, particularly a heavily frosted eagle!

Good Luck, CoolKarma

FrattLaw

Coolkarma -- thanks, if that's the requirements, then no cameo here. And I can understand why there's been so few. I've never seen such a WLH. It really must be beautiful with all that frost. I'm surprised that with that frost there aren't any deep cameos. I really do like this coin though. It has nice contrast, the mirrors are clean and somewhat deep and the frost is there just not enough I guess.

Thanks for the help. That's why I love this place. You guys just saved me some $$$.

Hey by the way --- nice set, but where are the PICS! I was hoping to see some breath taking coins!

Michael

Baley

That's the problem with making Cameo or Not a binary decision instead of assigning an amount (as a % of 100 or 70 or 10, whatever, as long as there are a number of gradations) of frost on the devices and another rating for the degree of contrast and/or depth of mirrors.

Because, for instance, if your coin appears better than average, but if you force me into a Yes or No decision, it is not a cameo coin at least at the 66 level. If I ordered a PF66Cam walker and yours showed up, I think I might be a little disappointed. If it were in a PF65 cam holder (and price) then maybe.

Or does the holder matter more than the coin itself.... depends on your goal. I think it's an awesome coin and definitely PQ for a 66. Congrats!

lordmarcovan

No CAM, but a pretty coin, nonetheless.

coolkarma

(I guess I don't type fast enough

Placid, that is a great looking obverse! I find that most "frosted" walkers are a bit one-sided. I have a 1940 with an incredible reverse (truly dcam potential), but a just barely frosted obverse. But I really like that half!

Coinguy1, do you have any insight into why the grading services are so strict with cameos for the 1936-1942 period? Except for cents, there are a total of only 28 PCGS graded cameos, nickels (7 Jeffs, 4 Buffalos) plus dimes (12) plus quarters (0) plus halves (5). Those are mighty small numbers.

FrattLaw, I don't know what the different grading services might require, but that's the variation I've seen. If you search back to May 2, 2001 on Teletrade, there is a picture of the NGC PF67 Cameo half. While it is still hard to tell from a picture, it does provide an idea of what NGC requires. IMHO, while the obverse looks cameo, even deep cameo (except for the only lightly frosted sun and lower back skirt panel), the reverse looks a little weak in several key areas. But it is only a picture.

I do have one walker that I think deserves the cameo designation and I will submit it to PCGS for designation review at some point, perhaps soon. I also have a second that is very close and a raw coin... But now I'm dreaming

If your coin budget is much, much, much greater than mine, R&I Coins has the NGC PF67 Cameo Walking Liberty Half for sale. Only $14,500.

Of course, the bottom line is "I really do like this coin". That's what I say.

Richard

P.S., yes I realllllly need a good camera. If I stop buying coins long enough I may get one

FrattLaw

The reverse of that coin does look weak. The obverse is beautiful though. The sun really doesn't have any frost though. Only $14,500, that's nice price increase from $3400 in 2001. Lucky buyer, if it really did sell.

Very interesting. I learn something everyday on these Boards. I had a new found affinity for proof walkers though. I might have to add a registry set to my "Need to Complete in my Lifetime" list.

Thanks everyone!

Michael

CarlWohlforth

Like CoinGuy1 says I don't think the sun will be frosted. I guess they intentionally wanted the sun to be brilliant. I've never seen a sun with any frost. Then again I haven't seen a cameo designated Walker either.

The services are stingy with the cam designation on proofs from '36-'42 mainly because there are so few of them! I saw a cameo proof Buffalo and thought the frost was too weak to make cameo. I have a Merc I think is cameo but is too heavily toned to get the designation. I have another weaker one and a Walker with a touch of frost.

scher

i love this series..nice coin and stranger things have happened but it sure looks typical and non cam to me..
bruce scher