Question for anyone on 1951 Topps Grading

The53Kid

I've started to play around with the 1951 Topps Red and Blue Backs. With the rounded egdes they seem less susceptible to wear. So my question is, given a raw 51 card, what really differentiates an 8 from a 9? Does anyone have any experience? Is the main focus on centering and gloss? How about the centering for the backs?


I'm just trying to gain a little knowledge before I go hunting in the binders.

Thanks,
Bruce

goodriddance189

centering and edge wear would be my best guesses

qualitycards

Keep in mind this is a set that is tough in high grade. Many of the cards were initially packaged end to end (SGC grades these panels) so when seperated as its intended purpose, it may not have a clean rip. These cards were also played with since it was in a game format. And enter the wrinkles that were very prevelent on the card, its very condition sensative. Several years ago, I opened a wax box of the red backs, and most cards had the minor creases & wrinkles straight from the packs. Recently I had a beautiful Rizzuto that was MINT quality, but a hairline reverse crease made the grade a PSA-5. I eBay'd it, and specified it was the nicest "5" on the planet, and I rarely ever hype a card. Just a scan and a description of what the label says. The winner also agreed it was a beauty. I would have chosen my 5 than a standard 5 w/ no wrinkle and the usual waer that a 5 represents...jay

curmudgeon

qualitycards:

It was my understanding that these cards were not regularly packaged as panels--rather, the panels came in certain "fun bags" or similarly- named packages sold ByTopps that included more than just baseball cards. This is why so few panels are found, and very few graded by PSA or SGC. When you opened the red back box, were the cards in panels?

I would agree that the light wrinkles are often found on these cards--wrinkles that plainly came from the factory as opposed to some sort of mishandling by the collector. Also, I have seen light surface wear on many of them. Still, I believe either set can be assembled in high grade at modest cost, and that the cards are undervalued.

Mudge

The53Kid

I would also be interested to know about the origins of the panels. I could have sworn I saw an unopened box of 51's in an auction recently, and they appeared to be in single card format.

goodriddance189

the packs were (i believe) 2 cards per pack. i hadnt even seen the panels till recently

goodriddance189

1951 Topps Unopened Blue Pack

cmcclelland

I cannot speak to the grading of the individual red backs, but on the red back panels, I do have some experience. I recently puchased about 20 or so of the panels raw and had all of them graded by PSA (PSA and SGC both grade the panels by the way). I got a 10, several 9's, several 8's, a few 7's, a few 6's and one 5. I can't really say how PSA differentiates between an 8 and a 9 on these. The wear on the rounded corners and edges could be a factor, but I don't see much difference there on my 8's and 9's (even under magnification). Centering and gloss on the front is probably a big factor, but I don't think the centering on the back factors in much. This is all based on my experience with these 20 or so panels, so things could be much different with the individual red backs.

With regard to the distribution of the panels, it is my understanding that they were sold in the caramel packs along with the Connie Mack All-Stars, Team Cards, and Major League All-Stars. This makes perfect sense becaue all of those cards are the same size. I'm not sure how many were packaged together, but I'm guessing there was maybe a panel (red back or blue back) along with a Connie Mack or Current All Star or along with a team card. Also, I believe there was a small find of about 8 complete sets of red back panels in a warehouse by Kit Young in the last couple of years.

I believe the red back singles were already torn apart from the other card in the panel before they were inserted into the singles packs, but I might be wrong on that. I suppose it's possible that the panels were simply folded over (still attached) and inserted into the singles packs. Maybe someone who has opened one of these packs can shed some light on this.

That's what I know.

Fuzz

cmcclelland,
A 10 on a panel !! Geez, the holy grail, Panel are tough in any condition.
In a galaxy far far away many millions of years ago, I had one of the largest pack and wrapper collections in the country and even wrote about it for an SCD book, some articles and the like. The theory proposed of one panel, team card, and punchout issue was the prevailing thought at the time but to my knowledge has never been proven. It only makes sense since the the panel and the team card were probably both needed to protect the thin punch out card. They all do fit the large ' baseball candy' wrapper and it was a 5 cent issue so it would have had to contain a lot to get the value right to collectors.
Rumor has always had it that the Cnady inside was a 'Caramel' and was absolutley the most revolting tasting thing ever made. that would account for the shortage of the larger cards in today's market. After all they actually bought the packs back then for the gum/candy. Jay, I haven't opened one of these for at least 15 years but I do believe that they were seperated not folded. Many cases of these 'Doubles' were found about 20 years ago, I believe in the Philly area, and boxes of these were available all over for a long time at under $1K per box. If I recall correctly the find was something like 1 case of Blue backs in doubles wrappers and dozens of cases of red backs in the doubles wrapper.
The blue back pack referenced earlier in the thread is one of the type. The 'true Blue back' packs were issued in 1 cent packs of Baseball Candy. That darned caramel was involved again and there were two different wrappers that it was issued in. One was a red with blue printing and the other yellow with green printing. Same design just different colors. I owned a yellow/green pack for years and the caramel left a serious grease stain on the wrapper and appeared pretty disgusting. The thought many years ago was that the Blue back was to be the issue for the one cent and not as popular as the larger planned 5 cent production. That was to explain the relative difficulty difference between the red and the blue. Red backs at the time had never been found in anything but the 'Doubles' wrapper and were issued with out gum. The blue backs and been found in both varieties. The thought was when the caramel bombed the 'no candy issue' was just to move the cards. Any of you 52 pack collectors would no that the gum back then would not have fit into the small packs created. The idea was that the 'no gum/candy' issue also might not have sold well leaving the large find for many years later.
That was the info at the time and the theories we had as to what/why and how.
How they grade 51 RB/ BB's, probably the same was as 71 Fb inserts or 70 Super Glossy's. And I have no idea on those either.
Fuzz
Fuzz

murcerfan

my understanding was that blue back panels were issued with current all-stars.
connie macks and team cards were issed with red back panels.
this is consistent with a "find" i came across from someone that had opened a couple "baseball candy" packs with red back panels team cards and connie macks.
I have also seen the redback set issued in rack pack form. 26 red back panels making a complete 52 card "deck" along with a paper fold-out game board. I believe the idea was to punch out and stand up the player cards from the current and connie macks "teams" and use them as game pieces.
Rosen snaked the only one I have seen off e-bay and had it in his following auction.


there was also a store advertising piece which pictures the candy baseball "panel" pack

cmcclelland

Dave,

Way cool - I love this kind of stuff. Did you scan these pix from an auction catalog or what?

cmcclelland

qualitycards

MURCERFAN - Great scans of an awesome item. What did it auction for?

CMC - Yours is the 1st panel I ever saw from PSA, and I've seen several SGC's prior. Panels are very neat preserved like this. I'll have to look for some.

CURMUDGEON - I'm not so sure I agree that a high grade set can be completed at a modest cost. A few months ago, I had some PSA-9 red back commons on eBay and was floored by the #'s. In fact all went for 2 to 3 times SMR, and a couple crawled over the $200 barrier. (SMR is $65)

FUZZ - Is correct, he was/is a leading authority on packs and wrappers way before Mark Murphy came to prominence, I still have Fuzz' book/price guide that I still use as a refrence, I ooked up something today in fact...jay

murcerfan

Fuzz,
help me find a '71 Greatest Moments wrapper!

(Oh, and ignore the next post here by 1954 asking the same thing.)

mrc32

Who was it that said there wasn't much knowledge on this board??

LloydsBaseballCards

Now this is a quality thread, great knowledge and great pictures. thanks

murcerfan

did someone say "more cheese"?

Griffins

Has anyone seen or have a scan of a '71 Greatest Moments wrapper? I've been looking for one for years as well, to finish my set. I've seen uncut sheets, but never a pack, wrapper or wax box. Anyone?

murcerfan

copycat

packCollector

murcerfan awesome pics? since were putting out want lists for the rare stuff , 64 topps stand-up pack anyone?

murcerfan

how ironic.
in the midst of all this talk of wrappers i win an auction
i had completley forgot about bidding on. a nice pick-up for my
#1 '62 Football Set (barely). I may need the bonus points to fend off leadfoot.
evrything for a dollar day

1954

Boggs- I have a wrapper, but not a pack.
Fuzz- I will pay you $200 more than Murcerfans high bid on a wrapper. I will pay you $4000 for a pack of it undisturbed.
Griffins- you don't collect 71 GM, so don't even ask.

Murcerfan- You have the second nicest Greatest Moments set I have ever seen. Keep up the good work.


1954

Griffins

Shane-
Just because I finished the set (the cards at least, if not the wrapper and pack and box) doesn't mean I don't collect it!
Many of these Topps test sets were apparently not actually issued, or just issued thru a store in Brooklyn. Murphy doesn't have any wrappers pictured in his book, and I've never spoken to anyone that has seen a wrapper, back, box, etc. I've seen uncut sheets offered, but I'd like to see at least a scan of the other stuff. Anyone seen anything?

1954

Legend has it that a pack was on Ebay like 7 years ago??? I don't know anything about it. I can tell you that I have never seen a wrapper/pack. I have had six or seven cards though that have had wax/gum stains on the front of the card. I believe they were the White, McCarver, Bando and Aparicio. These are the more common ones that you see. That makes me believe that SOME were actually issued in packs.

1954

anjcollection

Bruce,

If you see this, shoot me an email when you get a chance: andynjenny@yahoo.com

If I recall, you're in the SD area, right? It's funny you should mention this set - especially after you bought the 53 Topps Reprint set off of me. I used to own one of the top 1951 Topps Blue Back sets (had a complete set graded). We must have similar tastes in cards.

Fuzz

Good News/ Bad new guys,
I'll start with the bad. I consigned my wrapper collection to a dealer about 7 years ago. I got some of it back about two years ago but most of the nice wrappers were gone. I used to keep a 'copy file' of copies that I had obtained through correspondence and had copied to send out. This file was full of side panels (gathered for a book section with Paul Wright who is now the GAI pack grader and I think foremost pack collector/ expert in the hobby-- no offense intended to some of the guys here that have developed great collections as well), variations and rare wrappers. I tossed the whole thing a couple of years ago to make room for incoming stuff. I also through out the sequences of how players appeared in rack packs for many of the 80's and late 70's BB/FB issues). What an idiot !! as I think I would like to have all of that back.
I did check my old computer inventory that I created and sent with collection when it went and a 71 GM wrapper was listed in 'fine' condition. It is a white was test wrapper and the things did come in packs. I believe I even remember running across a few in auctions after I stopped collecting packs. All these test issues were closed with a sticker that listed the gum ingredients so getting a guarenteed 'untampered' pack would be impossible since the sticker could be removed and replaced with a little care.
I will check through some old computer files as I did scan many wrappers back then and may still have something on an old Mac. I'll let you know. I will also contact another board member and see if he can shed some light on this topic as well
Fuzz

murcerfan

I was once told by Rosen and Kit Young that indeed there was a wrapper
the wax envelope with a color graphics sticker placed on the front
like the '68 3-ds, '74 deckles and puzzles.

Obviously, because I have more 9's and 8's in my set than 1954, I should get dibs on the first ones you lurkers can dig up.

Fuzz,
Thanks for sharing and looking for a picture to post for us.

Fuzz

Jay,
I forgot to thank you for the book plug but I got rid of all of those years ago. There weren't that many made so you have a collectors item. My only regret was that I didn't keep one for myself. Still have all the info (an the old Mac with the wrapper scans), just don't use it often....... but maybe someday.......
Fuzz

snakedr

Hi Fuzz: This thread brings back a lot of good memories of wrapper and box collecting from many years ago.
I too wish I had my wrapper collection back, but I also moved onto other things, that have been as rewarding.
To get to this thread, I do have a color copy of the 71 GM wrapper I used to have, but it is at my office. I should be
able to post it here next week. It truly was a 'scarce' wrapper, much more that the 3-D and Stand-ups. The one I
had was just like Fuzz described: White wax with a red colored sticker on the front and a small white sticker holding
the folded panels together on the back. The wrapper I owned came from a collector in Washington state. I had known
about it for years, but couldn't talk him into parting with it. I ended up trading him two unopened wax packs for it:
both varieties of the 1964 Topps BB one cent packs. This is a great thread!

murcerfan

It seems this wrapper is rarer than it ought to be. especially if there were the typical 3 to 5 cards in a pack (guessing on that).

Fuzz

Dr.,
Always great to hear from you. You are truly a wrapper legend. I would appreciate the post and am sure that it will leave the crowd drooling. So I take it you got Jensen's. Then I wonder where the one I got was from. It was too long ago to remember. I still have some of the lower end stuff taking up half a room in the house, but it is not the same.
Murcerfan,
I think the good Dr's post next week will shed some light on that. The front sticker usually listed the number of cards and what it was. I think that this was all Gelman stuff and many of the card may not have been wrapped at all and if they were, he would opened. collated and sold as sets. I would guess there are probably a half dozen or so of these floating around. As far as really tough wrappers go, it's hard, but there several that are a lot harder.

I was actually asked once if I thought it would be a feasible business to grade and slab wrappers by some one with the means to get that done. I told them no, I didn't think it would be worthwhile. Any comments on that decision?
Fuzz

Griffins

Fuzz- I don't think slabbing wrappers is that far fetched, although, like complete packs I think the grade is pointless- it should be authentic or not. I try and have a wrappper with each set (and a pack, wax box, and/or some sort of uncut sheet or panel if possible) and it seems like some are much tougher to find than others. In your experience what are the toughest to find? The Goudeys were pretty easy, as were the Diamond Stars, but I've yet to find Delongs, and the '41 Playballs seem tough (maybe due to WW2 paper drives?) Are there any modern (post war) ones that are considerably rarer than others? And lastly, are there any dealers that seem to have a decent selection?

murcerfan

one problem would be that to not have the wrapper folded back up, it would need to be in a much larger holder than the salbbed cards. at least to me that is a draw back.
Is it possible that the GM set never got distributed over the counter? some of the clues are pointing that way. I believe that most surviving '69 supers did not, but are the result of Card Collectors Co.
(or whatever Gelmans kid's mail order business was called) selling them by the set. And was this Co. the owner of the reputed warehouse that burned. How many '71 GM and '69 super sets would be floating around the hobby had that stash not been lost ? What else burned? is this stroy just an urban legend?

Griffins

When I was a kid (early 70's) Card Collectors Co was the only place you could find G.M.'s, and they were expensive. I think about $2. each (for reference T206 commons were .50 and HOFers were a buck or a bit more). I believe they were in Franklin Square NY. Add this to the stories I heard and read in The Trader Speaks that many test sets weren't actually issued over the counter, but were either sent out to Woody Gelman's buddies (Rich Egan, Buck Barker, Charles Brooks, et al) or at best sold at one particular store in Brooklyn it would seem that many of these were basically collector sets. The sticker sealing the GM package would seem to fall in with this theory- they had the facilities to mass seal the packs, but instead chose to hand seal them with a sticker. Anybody have any info more specific on any of this?
And while at it, if anyone has a Xerox of a Card Collectors catalog or one of Bruce Yeko's catalogs I'll make it worth your while to make me an extra copy.

Fuzz

Griffins,
I the old days, when God was young and dirt was still being made...........
The 1960 Topps 1c BB repeat was a thing of legends. I know a group of these were found a few years ago and that has killed the price on these. At the same level in post war was the 1953 Topps 5c dated. I have never seen one, just "the" copy. In fact ever copy I have seen is of the same wrapper which is just the card size front cut out. Others certainly contend here like the Large 51 wrapper, the Yellow and green Blueback wrapper, one of the Leaf varieties, etc. Several other variations (55 T 5 c dated, some of the 1c varieties, are also quite challenging).
In pre war, there are many 'impossible wrappers". US Caramel had never been seen though I think there was one Delong and one Schutter- Johnson. Some Wroldwide gums were nasty tough and the 40 Playball's were no walk in the park. Remember there are 4 colors to each of the 40 & 41 Playballs.
To my knowledge, there is no dealer actively making a market in wrappers. I did for more than 5 years but that was long ago. The market is small but consistent. Any dealer or grading of these could bring some real order to a messy market. I disagree with the comment about grading vs authentication. There have been very very few attempts to pass a 'fake' wrapper. Unlike packs, these are relatively easy to authenticate an d would greatly reduce the liability associated with an guarentee program. With the delicate nature, tearing is an issue so relative grading is important based on the desire for the nicest copy.
PSA -------- Joe, If you slab wrappers, I will submit and collect. How about it ????? It will be as good as ticket stubs.
Fuzz