The grading of Proof Coins

merz2

I just wanted to get the general feelings of this board.How many of you think to much emphasis is placed on hairlines.I have viewed many Proof Coins,and some definitely have better strike than others.Yet it seems that no matter how great the strike,all the grading companies look at hairlines and stop the grading process. Or is this my imagination ?

LucyBop

When it comes to proof Frankies, hairlines are a killer for grades... mucho hairlines and at best you can hope ful is a pr65...... regardless of strike, most proof coins are well struck.... Frankies are known for hairlines, making pr68s or better scarce......

Russ

With PCGS hairlines are a killer - they absolutely hate them. I have butt ugly hairline-free spotted coins in PR67 holders, and beautiful but hairlined coins in PR64 holders.

By way of illustration look at these two coins:





They are from the same die pair and PCGS graded both as DCAMs. The first went 68, the second graded 65. The difference is hairlines.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1

merz2/Don,

In the vast majority of cases, the expectation is/should be, that, due to the minting process, the strike on a proof coin will be sharp, at least on a relative basis. So, while a poor strike might negatively impact the grade, a sharp one will usually have no effect.

I believe that hairlines are usually likely to have the most impact, followed by, among other things, spotting, staining, streaking, dark and/or unattractive toning, dull surfaces, etc.

You might be "imagining things", but not in this instance.

fcloud

Nice halves, Russ!


I have a 1964 (not AH) that I sent in and got a PR69. The coin is beautiful with a light cam (not enough for the designation). The coin looks as good as the stuff you see today!

I agree on the hairline thing. If it has a hint of hairlines--low grade PERIOD.

merz2

Mark
I agree that the Proof Coins were made to have an excelllent strike,but as you and I and I'm sure most would agree at least 50% don't.So should the grading companies give more emphasis to the strike ?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

dON

Even before there were grading companies,Proof coins were graded by hairlines.They weren't minted for circulation.Hairlines are to proof coins what rub is to circulation strike coins,

stewart

mnmcoin

I have found that strike comes into play, but just about a single point at the most. For example, a similarly hairlined coin with average strike may get a 65, but with a great strike will go 66. Along the same line on the couple early dated Franklins and Washingtons I have made in 69, the strike is usually what separated them from the 68.

morris <><

rd5425

I agree proofs should be graded by their strike and not have so much emphasis on their hairlines. I have 2 1940 proof lincolns for example, one has the strike of a 67 and is graded 64 by NGC only because of a few minor hairlines, but then I have a pcgs 1940 graded pr65 which has no hairlines but has the strike of a 65. The ngc one clearly looks much better and the hairlines are not even visible to the naked eye so I think the graders should ease up on proofs regarding harlines.

Steve27

I agree, I've seen beautiful PR68 coins where the hairlines were undetectable to the naked eye, and I've seen ugly PR69 coins (which I hope actually went bad in the slab).

Lakesammman

What Stewart said.

coinguy1

<< <i>Mark
I agree that the Proof Coins were made to have an excelllent strike,but as you and I and I'm sure most would agree at least 50% don't.So should the grading companies give more emphasis to the strike ?
>>

Don, I see that others have addressed your question, but, since I am admittedly obsessive-compulsive about trying to answer questions posed to me....... I think you over-estimate the % of weakly struck Proof coins and my answer to your question is no. I think that the emphasis placed on hairlines, rather than strike, is justified and appropriate.

Steve

Don and others,
This may be a little off subject, but I find MY enjoyment is by collecting all the Lincoln proofs from 1909 thru 2003. I did this over a number of years and did not look thru a loop before buying each and every one of my $5 proofs from a dealer or after I got my Proof sets from the US Mint. No doubt on the later years, hairlines play a role in grade. My memorials graded all the way from 63 to 69. When I look at the set with a naked eye, they ALL look very nice. My "kicks" come with knowing I have them all and they look nice to ME. I realize the ultimate value of my Lincoln proofs could be improved if I were being absolutely sure hairlines do not show on my proofs, but then again, that is no guarantee that PCGS will agree. To me, the bottom line is to COLLECT the coins you like at a price you are comfortable with paying primarily for the purpose of completion. If you do so, the investment value of your collection will generally be there. JMHO. Steve

bushmaster8

Stewart says, "Hairlines are to proof coins what rub is to circulation strike coins,"...

...but that is not entirely accurate. A coin with too much rub is no longer considered uncirculated. But a proof with too many hairlines is still a proof.

I recently picked up a 1969 and a 1970 proof sets. I bought them for the dazzling rainbow toned cents. When I opened the sealed cases, I became aware that the Kennedy's both were quite hairlined, probably enuff to grade PR64.

Is this normal for Kennedy's from this era? Or should I suspect someone tampered with the proof sets and resealed them??

Russ

<< <i>the Kennedy's both were quite hairlined, probably enuff to grade PR64.

Is this normal for Kennedy's from this era? >>



bushmaster8

It's not uncommon for the halves to be hairlined for these years. The mint wasn't as gentle as they are today. I wouldn't worry about tampering.

Russ, NCNE

Lakesammman

Just had a FE cent regraded. People kept telling me it was hairlined and a 64. All I could see were die polish lines and a beautiful coin. It came back 65 Cameo.

Anyone know if this is a problem with the services?? I submit so few proofs that I don't know if they bother/have trouble with differentiating the two.....Coinguy??

MoneyLA

When it comes to a pr70 vs a pr69 the difference is all in the strike. hairlines will dramatically cut grade points across the board. cheers, alan mendelson

merz2

I will bow to the more experienced and my peers.I guess it is wishful thinking on my part.Thanks for the replies.This is what this board is about.True discussion and honest answers to questions,without all the name calling and bad feelings that I've seen lately.Again Thanks !

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Bushmaster8 - the man with 100 posts

I said circulated strikes and not uncirculated strikes.Anyway a Proof coin with alot of hairlines can become "rub".Then the coin is graded less than 60.There are many 1856 Flying Eagle cents that fit this description.

stewart

LucyBop

Stewartblay - the man with 671 posts...

Hows the weather in NY?

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Hey Hepkitty,

It's 672 posts

It's warm and oh so muggy...I was just dripping sweat today

Just trying to stay Kool............

LucyBop

Typetone

Hairlines are the key to numeric grade. However, that creates an opportunity on CAMs and DCAMs, especially in higher grades. Sometimes you can buy one numeric grade down with better contrast for a lot less money, if you can put up with an invisable hairline or two.

Example, I own a 68DCAM 1956 Type 2 Franklin in PR68DCAM that cost about $400 on Teletrade. I was looking at trading it for a 69DCAM from Rick Tomaska at something like $3500. When I sent the 68 to Rick, he advised me not to do the swap. He pointed out that the contrast on mine was much better (though the 69 was also very nice). He said there was probably an extra hairline somewhere on the 68, but he couldn't see if. If it was there, it certainly was not a distraction. So, for an extra $3,100 I had the chance to get a coin with slightly inferior contrast with one less imaginary hairline somewhere. Well I bought the 69 anyway, but did decide to keep the 68. There are a number of similar examples I could sight.

Greg

coinrookie

On cam and dcam, I tend to think like Greg. But what kills me is a coin with no naked eye hairlines but frost breaks and the coin still grades high.

Steve

Greg,
In your reference to hairlines on proof coins, are you saying that IF PCGS grades a coin PR68 or PR67 or PR66 instead of the PR69 you think it should be, then, in order to reconcile your expectation of grade with what PCGS has awarded it, you ASSUME the reason is "invisible" hairlines? That is a good way to rationalize the differences between what we think a coin should grade and what PCGS thinks a coin should grade. JMHO. Steve

Typetone

Steve:

I'm not saying the PCGS grade is not accurate. However, the difference between a 67, 68, and 69 may be very slight. Usually it is a question of a light hairline or two. However, proof collectors are often more concerned with factors like the degree of contrast of 1950's proofs, or mirrors or color on earlier proofs. Sometimes you can get much better contrast on a lower grade (say a 67 CAM vs a 68 CAM). I am simply suggesting that there might be value in buying the lower grade at a lower price if one with better contrast is available. All you are giving up is an added hairline or two.

Greg

bushmaster8

Got a bit of a surprise today concerning the Cam/Dcam issue.

I cracked out a 1956 Franklin from a PCGS PR67 Dcam slab. (I know, I know, I should have gone with a regrade instead of cracking ... but I like to gamble a little for the excitement.)

It came back this time as a PR68 Cam. Now I know that resubmitting coins in this manner OFTEN results in a variety of numerical grades. But I was under the naive impression that the difference between a CAM and a DCAM was more concrete.

Just how big of a grey-zone is there??