looking forward to fom's response, fairly certain there will be none.... >>
. >>
There will be none because it's not necessary. The otherwise excellent post by Newmismatist will need to be ripped to shreds because of a couple of paragraphs bashing moderns. As soon as the uproar subsides a little there will suddenly be another post suggesting either classics are a losers game or there's lots of easy money in just buying anything modern and we'll be right back to square one.
Let's try this; just imagine a modern collector's response to the old points raised in the thread. Everyone has seen it enough times it shouldn't be too difficult. But there is one new point in the thread I will address.
Newmismatist states that knowing the number of dies and the rate of wear will give one a statisti- cal inference of how many gem dimes exist for the date. Most surprisingly for moderns there isn't even a strong correlation between the number of dies used and the number of good strikes produced and this breaks down much further when other factors of grade are included. Many dies are used which never even were impressed with all the detail because of bad hubs or poor hubbing. Even the dies with perfect detail are very frequently set up obliquely to the other die or too far away to obtain a good strike. Even after a good strike is produced it has great difficulty getting out of the mint with out recieving damage. Case in point: One of the best dies for 1985 dimes struck several thousand of near perfect gems but every single one has a scratch in front of the nose on the obverse. Apparent- ly there was something in the coining chamber which marked these as they came off the die.
It is only through looking at these coins and trying to obtain a good sample that one can get a good estimation of the number of gems which were produced. It is only by noting where the gems are actually found that one can make reasonable predictions about how many survive.
<< <i>The otherwise excellent post by Newmismatist will need to be ripped to shreds because of a couple of paragraphs bashing moderns. As soon as the uproar subsides a little there will suddenly be another post suggesting either classics are a losers game or there's lots of easy money in just buying anything modern and we'll be right back to square one. >>
CladKing -This is a mispreception of my point. I like modern coins. I started out collecting Lincoln pennies as many of us have. I still like them & it is a set that I still consider a very collectible series - I have sets of Buffs, Jeffs, Mercs, Roosies, & Frankies + lots of modern Mint sets and Proof sets, which incidentally I looked at the for 1st time today in many years - there are some really neat modern coins out there. Any new collector should start by collecting modern coins - State quarters would be a great place to start - you can find them in circulation & in rolls at your bank - you can compare lots of examples, learn how to grade, learn striking chacteristics, luster, handling marks - all the necessary information needed to progress beyond the novice stage to an collector who feels comfortable with this wonderful hobby and thence to an experienced collector who can make his own assessment as to the wisdom & value of recommendations like those on DHRC's website, which btw I looked at & read all 7 pages - some I agree with, some I don't. He's a dealer selling coins at the retail level and as a collector, I know he's going to recommend coins that he thinks you should buy from him so he can profit from the transaction. EVERY dealer has the tendency to do this, as well they should. What we need to do as collectors (and the end consumers of this enterprise) is learn and understand what's rare & what's common, what's a good value & what's over-priced. BUT as soon as we look at this as a pure investment, independant for the underlying support of a collector base, there is great potential for disasterous result.
If I were a new collector I would definately learn about collecting coins by starting with modern coins. I might never buy a coin minted before 1900 (or 1946 for that matter) but I would learn about what I was doing & not try & "guess" what's going to be the next "hot" trend in coins. By the time you find that out, its too late - you'll be buying what's over-priced hype (& there's a lot of "hype" out there) - its happened over and over in the past, & it will happen in the future - Remember dealers can't "hype" specific rare early coins (like a 1793 Large cent) because there aren't many out there & it'd be tough to sell any (far less a lot) of them to be able to make any kind of a profit. In contrast, its very easy to hype "top pop" modern coins - they get "made" every day, there may be a virtually unlimited supply & (what every one seems to forget) is THAT THEIR RARITY DEPENDS ON SOMEONES' "OPINION" as to how nice it is. Opinions are NOT something that anyone should bet the farm on - they change and (Cha-Ching!) they may even be dependant on who's financial gain is benefited (I'm sure no one on this forum believes that anyone would ever assign a "top pop" grade to a coin just to make a profit).
My thoughts on Modern coins - they're very collectible, they're very available, putting together sets of them is a lot of fun - just be careful not to confuse collecting with investing, particularly were there are millions of non-graded coins available - Buying a 1963 PR70Deep Cameo Lincoln penny for $39,100 has a whole lot of potential for loss, buying a 1963 Pr69DCAM for $124 will be a nice start for a collection of high grade Lincoln Proofs, whether all of them from 1909 to date, of just the Lincoln Memorials (It may even be over-priced, but you won't lose the mortgage payment if it becomes worth no more than the value of a mint sealed 1963 Proof set which is worth about $10). I like modern coins and I collect them - but I don't think I'd bet my retirement porfolio on them.
That's JMHO
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
...but I would learn about what I was doing & not try & "guess" what's going to be the next "hot" trend in coins. By the time you find that out, its too late - you'll be buying what's over-priced hype (& there's a lot of "hype" out there) - its happened over and over in the past, & it will happen in the future - Remember dealers can't "hype" specific rare early coins (like a 1793 Large cent) because there aren't many out there & it'd be tough to sell any (far less a lot) of them to be able to make any kind of a profit.
Newmismatist: Your entire post was very well stated, and I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
In contrast, its very easy to hype "top pop" modern coins - they get "made" every day, there may be a virtually unlimited supply & (what every one seems to forget) is THAT THEIR RARITY DEPENDS ON SOMEONES' "OPINION" as to how nice it is. >>
High grade coins are as real as a heart attack. The mint asks no ones opinion of a coins grade before, during, or after it's made. You are implying that modern high grade coins are somehow less real than classic high grade coins.
Just as a dealer can't hype 1793 dollars, he can't very well hype gem 1973-D dollars either. These coins are hardly being graded everyday and even if they were still being graded, it can't last indefinitely. There is a finite supply of all moderns!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you believe this supply is huge or tiny has no bearing on its size, but it is finite. Do you really believe that a thousand dollar modern with millions of survivors has a population of one?????????? Why aren't people sending in their hordes of this coin? Are they waiting for the second sucker who's willing to pay $1000?
It doesn't matter what you, I, or a newbie collects. This is a hobby of choices and increasing numbers of people are making a choice to collect moderns because of their availability and relative ease of forming significant sets. It is the growth of demand which is causing increasing prices. And the reason that moderns are cheap isn't that they're recent, or common, or junk, or made by the grading companies, or just no fun. The reason they're cheap is that the demand for them is still very small.
Betting that this demand continues to increase is pure speculation.
<< <i> You are implying that modern high grade coins are somehow less real than classic high grade coins. >>
CladKing - Absolutely NOT! high grade modern coins are both real and collectible, no different than classic high grade coins BUT there are many more available & that's a fact, and certainly huge numbers that have never been graded by any grading service.
<< <i> Just as a dealer can't hype 1793 dollars, he can't very well hype gem 1973-D dollars either. These coins are hardly being graded everyday and even if they were still being graded, it can't last indefinitely. There is a finite supply of all moderns!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you believe this supply is huge or tiny has no bearing on its size, but it is finite. Do you really believe that a thousand dollar modern with millions of survivors has a population of one?????????? Why aren't people sending in their hordes of this coin? Are they waiting for the second sucker who's willing to pay $1000? >>
Didja ever wonder why there are more high grade 1892 barbers, 1909 Lincolns, 1913 Buffs etc in high grade than other earlier dates of those series? They were something new & lots of people saved these 1st year issues - that's why generally you will have an easier time finding a high grade example of a 1st year coin in a series. This may even be true of the 1793 Large Cent, but our fledgling economy didn't permit people who made a dollar a week to save a penny for posterity. Coin collecting in this country really became popular in 1856 with the introduction f the Flying Eagle small cent - coin collecting "Boomed" - to the point where in 1859 & 1860 the mint actually re-struck about 2-3000 more 1856 FE cents. - It is the most common pattern coin, BUT because it became part of the date series of FE's it is collected as a regular issue coin, so although common as a pattern, it is scarce as a regular issue. Coin collecting has increased since that time, and now there are thousands (maybe millions) of coin collectors, and guess what - we save coins for posterity - I have 30 - 40 mint sealed 1973-D Ikes - I got 'em when they were issued, I don't need to spend them for food or on my kids so I've kept them - I'm sure I'm not he only one - They don't look particularly attractive (not many MS Ikes do) - I think the quality control at the mint left a lot to be desired, I have never bothered to examine them to see if they are extraordinarily high grade coins & I'm content to leave them in the wrappers that the mint put them in. Now if it turns out that none of them will grade higher than MS 63, & that's the rule for most 1973-Ds then I certainly would agree that a 1973-D MS68 Ike would be a condition rarity (it would be a POP 1 coin) & worth more than the average poorly made example. What would it be worth? - what ever someone who wanted a high grade example was willing to pay! Would it be a good investment? That is quite a different question. The mint sold 1,769, 258 1973-D Ikes - only in sets sold to collectors (or investors), so although they may not particularly look good, it’s a safe guess, that a very high % of those coins were purchased by people who intended to save or "collect" them. So, although I agree its a collectible coin, you need one if you're going to collect Ikes, or a a 1973 year set, or maybe even a 20th century type set, but if you own the that 1973-D MS68 Ike, you have to bear in mind that PCGS has only graded 1168 your MS68 would be the 1169th one) 73-Ds out of a total of 1,769, 258 made, distributed & probably mostly saved as none were released for circulation. - that's about .066% that have been graded. Although you're absolutely correct that there would only be a finite number which would remain to be graded, BUT that finite number would be 1,768,069 of which none of us know how many would or could be high grade examples. I don't disagree that a high grade example of a 1973-D is probably a tough coin to find, but there is a pretty substantial number out there to look through. Please note I'm not bashing modern coins, nor am I bashing modern coins that are given high grades, all I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the number of potential coins that are available, and the fact that only a small number of that date (of which nearly all were purchased by collectors), have been graded thus far.
In the early 60's 1904-O Morgan dollars were very rare and very expensive - then the Federal Reserve released bags of this date, and now its neither rare nor expensive. I would wager that there are more 1973-D Ikes that have been saved and still available in their mint sealed packages than there are 1904-O Morgan silver dollars. Both are collectible coins, & it may even be harder to find a nice example of the 73-D than the 1904-O, but neither one is a particularly good "investment", hyped or not. Investing in common old coins is no different than investing common new coins. There's the same risks involved. THAT's my point. No classic vs. modern, just to be careful how you spend large amounts of money on things that may well be very common, but appear to be scarce because most have never been graded.
Collecting eye-appealing Proof and MS Indian Head Cents, 1858 Flying Eagle and IHC patterns and beautiful toned coins.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain Newmismatist
Newmismatist: The 1904-O Morgan Dollar is a very good analogy and was a good example to use. It used to be a date rarity, and now it's simply a common date type coin.
- Some like to collect Condition Rarities (MS-68/69) - Some like to collect Date/Mintmark Rarities (1909-S VDB 1c, 1932-D Quarter, 1879-CC Morgan, etc.) - Some like to collect Variety Rarities within a Series (Arrows & Rays Coins, No Stars Seated Lib, etc.) - Others like to collect Type Rarity (Draped Bust Coins, Capped Bust Coins, Chain Cents, etc.)
There are lots of different types of rarities to suit the interests of alot of different types of numismatists..
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i> I have 30 - 40 mint sealed 1973-D Ikes - I got 'em when they were issued, I don't need to spend them for food or on my kids so I've kept them - I'm sure I'm not he only one - They don't look particularly attractive (not many MS Ikes do) - I think the quality control at the mint left a lot to be desired, I have never bothered to examine them to see if they are extraordinarily high grade coins & I'm content to leave them in the wrappers that the mint put them in. Now if it turns out that none of them will grade higher than MS 63, & that's the rule for most 1973-Ds then I certainly would agree that a 1973-D MS68 Ike would be a condition rarity (it would be a POP 1 coin) & worth more than the average poorly made example. What would it be worth? - what ever someone who wanted a high grade example was willing to pay! Would it be a good investment? That is quite a different question. The mint sold 1,769, 258 1973-D Ikes - only in sets sold to collectors (or investors), so although they may not particularly look good, it’s a safe guess, that a very high % of those coins were purchased by people who intended to save or "collect" them. >>
Actually it's more likely that the bulk of these sets were bought by speculators who believed that these coins could become valuable. Even those relative few bought by collectors were generally purchased in groups of five with the intention of selling the excess with the profit paying for the one retained. While the mint made an extraordinarily large number of sets this extreme number compared to the number of actual collectors supressed the price of the set for many years. Despite being the ONLY source for the two Ike dollars, it was the primary source for the dimes and quar- ters and several of the gems from 1973. These sets have been destroyed over the years in enormous numbers intentionally to use the dollars to make the Ike sets that are retailed to the general public. Despite this substantial offtake the price of this thir- teen coin set plummeted to nearly $5 through the early 1990's. This set contained remarkable coins but could be purchased for less than a 50% premium to face value! This indicates a remarkable lack of demand. Where are these hordes of gem Ikes to- day? For that matter where are the 1973 mint sets? They been cut apart for the Ikes the gems, the varieties, and the coins which are hard to find from other sources since people didn't bother saving rolls either.
<< <i> So, although I agree its a collectible coin, you need one if you're going to collect Ikes, or a a 1973 year set, or maybe even a 20th century type set, but if you own the that 1973-D MS68 Ike, you have to bear in mind that PCGS has only graded 1168 your MS68 would be the 1169th one) 73-Ds out of a total of 1,769, 258 made, distributed & probably mostly saved as none were released for circulation. >>
Yes. It's true that these coins were mostly saved and even though some found their way to circulation these were the exception rather than the rule. They were saved by children who didn't know yet that clad was crap, they were saved by the advanced collectors who bought their coins on TV, they were saved by just about anyone who was willing to pay the $1.50 to acquire them. While there were few collectors there was a real dirth of serious collectors. There were a mere handful who knew coins and how to care for them, there were fewer still who cared enough about quality to seek them out. Now the few remaining sets are being checked to find the coins that may have survived these rigors. Even in nice original sets these coins were rare so just where are they to come from? There would have been few rolls saved but THERE WERE NONE MADE. There aren't great old collections just waiting to come on the market when the price is right. The fed doesn't have bags and bags of these stuffed in a warehouse just waiting for a bean counter to find them. There aren't small hordes saved by those who prefer good metal to worthless paper. There aren't bags and bags of them backing paper currency. There aren't millions of them in European vaults just waiting to come home. You can't lift the floor boards in old houses and have much chance of finding a small bag of them. You won't find them in many coin shops, and you won't even find the gems and some major shows.
That so few have been graded is testament not to how many coins have been checked but to how few nice ones have been found.
Comments
<< <i>
looking forward to fom's response, fairly certain there will be none.... >>
. >>
There will be none because it's not necessary. The otherwise excellent post by Newmismatist
will need to be ripped to shreds because of a couple of paragraphs bashing moderns. As soon
as the uproar subsides a little there will suddenly be another post suggesting either classics are
a losers game or there's lots of easy money in just buying anything modern and we'll be right
back to square one.
Let's try this; just imagine a modern collector's response to the old points raised in the thread.
Everyone has seen it enough times it shouldn't be too difficult. But there is one new point in the
thread I will address.
Newmismatist states that knowing the number of dies and the rate of wear will give one a statisti-
cal inference of how many gem dimes exist for the date. Most surprisingly for moderns there isn't
even a strong correlation between the number of dies used and the number of good strikes produced
and this breaks down much further when other factors of grade are included. Many dies are used
which never even were impressed with all the detail because of bad hubs or poor hubbing. Even the
dies with perfect detail are very frequently set up obliquely to the other die or too far away to obtain
a good strike. Even after a good strike is produced it has great difficulty getting out of the mint with
out recieving damage. Case in point: One of the best dies for 1985 dimes struck several thousand
of near perfect gems but every single one has a scratch in front of the nose on the obverse. Apparent-
ly there was something in the coining chamber which marked these as they came off the die.
It is only through looking at these coins and trying to obtain a good sample that one can get a good
estimation of the number of gems which were produced. It is only by noting where the gems are actually
found that one can make reasonable predictions about how many survive.
<< <i>The otherwise excellent post by Newmismatist
will need to be ripped to shreds because of a couple of paragraphs bashing moderns. As soon
as the uproar subsides a little there will suddenly be another post suggesting either classics are
a losers game or there's lots of easy money in just buying anything modern and we'll be right
back to square one. >>
CladKing -This is a mispreception of my point. I like modern coins. I started out collecting Lincoln pennies as many of us have. I still like them & it is a set that I still consider a very collectible series - I have sets of Buffs, Jeffs, Mercs, Roosies, & Frankies + lots of modern Mint sets and Proof sets, which incidentally I looked at the for 1st time today in many years - there are some really neat modern coins out there. Any new collector should start by collecting modern coins - State quarters would be a great place to start - you can find them in circulation & in rolls at your bank - you can compare lots of examples, learn how to grade, learn striking chacteristics, luster, handling marks - all the necessary information needed to progress beyond the novice stage to an collector who feels comfortable with this wonderful hobby and thence to an experienced collector who can make his own assessment as to the wisdom & value of recommendations like those on DHRC's website, which btw I looked at & read all 7 pages - some I agree with, some I don't. He's a dealer selling coins at the retail level and as a collector, I know he's going to recommend coins that he thinks you should buy from him so he can profit from the transaction. EVERY dealer has the tendency to do this, as well they should. What we need to do as collectors (and the end consumers of this enterprise) is learn and understand what's rare & what's common, what's a good value & what's over-priced. BUT as soon as we look at this as a pure investment, independant for the underlying support of a collector base, there is great potential for disasterous result.
If I were a new collector I would definately learn about collecting coins by starting with modern coins. I might never buy a coin minted before 1900 (or 1946 for that matter) but I would learn about what I was doing & not try & "guess" what's going to be the next "hot" trend in coins. By the time you find that out, its too late - you'll be buying what's over-priced hype (& there's a lot of "hype" out there) - its happened over and over in the past, & it will happen in the future - Remember dealers can't "hype" specific rare early coins (like a 1793 Large cent) because there aren't many out there & it'd be tough to sell any (far less a lot) of them to be able to make any kind of a profit. In contrast, its very easy to hype "top pop" modern coins - they get "made" every day, there may be a virtually unlimited supply & (what every one seems to forget) is THAT THEIR RARITY DEPENDS ON SOMEONES' "OPINION" as to how nice it is. Opinions are NOT something that anyone should bet the farm on - they change and (Cha-Ching!) they may even be dependant on who's financial gain is benefited (I'm sure no one on this forum believes that anyone would ever assign a "top pop" grade to a coin just to make a profit).
My thoughts on Modern coins - they're very collectible, they're very available, putting together sets of them is a lot of fun - just be careful not to confuse collecting with investing, particularly were there are millions of non-graded coins available - Buying a 1963 PR70Deep Cameo Lincoln penny for $39,100 has a whole lot of potential for loss, buying a 1963 Pr69DCAM for $124 will be a nice start for a collection of high grade Lincoln Proofs, whether all of them from 1909 to date, of just the Lincoln Memorials (It may even be over-priced, but you won't lose the mortgage payment if it becomes worth no more than the value of a mint sealed 1963 Proof set which is worth about $10). I like modern coins and I collect them - but I don't think I'd bet my retirement porfolio on them.
That's JMHO
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
Newmismatist: Your entire post was very well stated, and I couldn't agree with you more. Thanks!
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
still waiting for fom to reply. still don't think it's gonna happen.
Sounds like he wants you to get rid of the good collectible stuff. And in turn buy up stuff that someones is setting on a big stock pile off??
<< <i>
In contrast, its very easy to hype "top pop" modern coins - they get "made" every day, there may be a virtually unlimited supply & (what every one seems to forget) is THAT THEIR RARITY DEPENDS ON SOMEONES' "OPINION" as to how nice it is.
>>
High grade coins are as real as a heart attack. The mint asks no ones opinion of a coins
grade before, during, or after it's made. You are implying that modern high grade coins
are somehow less real than classic high grade coins.
Just as a dealer can't hype 1793 dollars, he can't very well hype gem 1973-D dollars either.
These coins are hardly being graded everyday and even if they were still being graded, it
can't last indefinitely. There is a finite supply of all moderns!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you believe
this supply is huge or tiny has no bearing on its size, but it is finite. Do you really believe
that a thousand dollar modern with millions of survivors has a population of one??????????
Why aren't people sending in their hordes of this coin? Are they waiting for the second sucker
who's willing to pay $1000?
It doesn't matter what you, I, or a newbie collects. This is a hobby of choices and increasing
numbers of people are making a choice to collect moderns because of their availability and
relative ease of forming significant sets. It is the growth of demand which is causing increasing
prices. And the reason that moderns are cheap isn't that they're recent, or common, or junk, or
made by the grading companies, or just no fun. The reason they're cheap is that the demand
for them is still very small.
Betting that this demand continues to increase is pure speculation.
<< <i> You are implying that modern high grade coins are somehow less real than classic high grade coins. >>
CladKing - Absolutely NOT! high grade modern coins are both real and collectible, no different than classic high grade coins BUT there are many more available & that's a fact, and certainly huge numbers that have never been graded by any grading service.
<< <i> Just as a dealer can't hype 1793 dollars, he can't very well hype gem 1973-D dollars either. These coins are hardly being graded everyday and even if they were still being graded, it can't last indefinitely. There is a finite supply of all moderns!!!!!!!!!!!!!! Whether you believe this supply is huge or tiny has no bearing on its size, but it is finite. Do you really believe that a thousand dollar modern with millions of survivors has a population of one?????????? Why aren't people sending in their hordes of this coin? Are they waiting for the second sucker who's willing to pay $1000? >>
Didja ever wonder why there are more high grade 1892 barbers, 1909 Lincolns, 1913 Buffs etc in high grade than other earlier dates of those series? They were something new & lots of people saved these 1st year issues - that's why generally you will have an easier time finding a high grade example of a 1st year coin in a series. This may even be true of the 1793 Large Cent, but our fledgling economy didn't permit people who made a dollar a week to save a penny for posterity. Coin collecting in this country really became popular in 1856 with the introduction f the Flying Eagle small cent - coin collecting "Boomed" - to the point where in 1859 & 1860 the mint actually re-struck about 2-3000 more 1856 FE cents. - It is the most common pattern coin, BUT because it became part of the date series of FE's it is collected as a regular issue coin, so although common as a pattern, it is scarce as a regular issue. Coin collecting has increased since that time, and now there are thousands (maybe millions) of coin collectors, and guess what - we save coins for posterity - I have 30 - 40 mint sealed 1973-D Ikes - I got 'em when they were issued, I don't need to spend them for food or on my kids so I've kept them - I'm sure I'm not he only one - They don't look particularly attractive (not many MS Ikes do) - I think the quality control at the mint left a lot to be desired, I have never bothered to examine them to see if they are extraordinarily high grade coins & I'm content to leave them in the wrappers that the mint put them in. Now if it turns out that none of them will grade higher than MS 63, & that's the rule for most 1973-Ds then I certainly would agree that a 1973-D MS68 Ike would be a condition rarity (it would be a POP 1 coin) & worth more than the average poorly made example. What would it be worth? - what ever someone who wanted a high grade example was willing to pay! Would it be a good investment? That is quite a different question. The mint sold 1,769, 258 1973-D Ikes - only in sets sold to collectors (or investors), so although they may not particularly look good, it’s a safe guess, that a very high % of those coins were purchased by people who intended to save or "collect" them. So, although I agree its a collectible coin, you need one if you're going to collect Ikes, or a a 1973 year set, or maybe even a 20th century type set, but if you own the that 1973-D MS68 Ike, you have to bear in mind that PCGS has only graded 1168 your MS68 would be the 1169th one) 73-Ds out of a total of 1,769, 258 made, distributed & probably mostly saved as none were released for circulation. - that's about .066% that have been graded. Although you're absolutely correct that there would only be a finite number which would remain to be graded, BUT that finite number would be 1,768,069 of which none of us know how many would or could be high grade examples. I don't disagree that a high grade example of a 1973-D is probably a tough coin to find, but there is a pretty substantial number out there to look through. Please note I'm not bashing modern coins, nor am I bashing modern coins that are given high grades, all I'm doing is pointing out the reality of the number of potential coins that are available, and the fact that only a small number of that date (of which nearly all were purchased by collectors), have been graded thus far.
In the early 60's 1904-O Morgan dollars were very rare and very expensive - then the Federal Reserve released bags of this date, and now its neither rare nor expensive. I would wager that there are more 1973-D Ikes that have been saved and still available in their mint sealed packages than there are 1904-O Morgan silver dollars. Both are collectible coins, & it may even be harder to find a nice example of the 73-D than the 1904-O, but neither one is a particularly good "investment", hyped or not. Investing in common old coins is no different than investing common new coins. There's the same risks involved. THAT's my point. No classic vs. modern, just to be careful how you spend large amounts of money on things that may well be very common, but appear to be scarce because most have never been graded.
“It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.” Mark Twain
Newmismatist
- Some like to collect Condition Rarities (MS-68/69)
- Some like to collect Date/Mintmark Rarities (1909-S VDB 1c, 1932-D Quarter, 1879-CC Morgan, etc.)
- Some like to collect Variety Rarities within a Series (Arrows & Rays Coins, No Stars Seated Lib, etc.)
- Others like to collect Type Rarity (Draped Bust Coins, Capped Bust Coins, Chain Cents, etc.)
There are lots of different types of rarities to suit the interests of alot of different types of numismatists..
Stuart
Collect 18th & 19th Century US Type Coins, Silver Dollars, $20 Gold Double Eagles and World Crowns & Talers with High Eye Appeal
"Luck is what happens when Preparation meets Opportunity"
<< <i> I have 30 - 40 mint sealed 1973-D Ikes - I got 'em when they were issued, I don't need to spend them for food or on my kids so I've kept them - I'm sure I'm not he only one - They don't look particularly attractive (not many MS Ikes do) - I think the quality control at the mint left a lot to be desired, I have never bothered to examine them to see if they are extraordinarily high grade coins & I'm content to leave them in the wrappers that the mint put them in. Now if it turns out that none of them will grade higher than MS 63, & that's the rule for most 1973-Ds then I certainly would agree that a 1973-D MS68 Ike would be a condition rarity (it would be a POP 1 coin) & worth more than the average poorly made example. What would it be worth? - what ever someone who wanted a high grade example was willing to pay! Would it be a good investment? That is quite a different question. The mint sold 1,769, 258 1973-D Ikes - only in sets sold to collectors (or investors), so although they may not particularly look good, it’s a safe guess, that a very high % of those coins were purchased by people who intended to save or "collect" them. >>
Actually it's more likely that the bulk of these sets were bought by speculators
who believed that these coins could become valuable. Even those relative few
bought by collectors were generally purchased in groups of five with the intention
of selling the excess with the profit paying for the one retained. While the mint made
an extraordinarily large number of sets this extreme number compared to the number
of actual collectors supressed the price of the set for many years. Despite being the
ONLY source for the two Ike dollars, it was the primary source for the dimes and quar-
ters and several of the gems from 1973. These sets have been destroyed over the
years in enormous numbers intentionally to use the dollars to make the Ike sets that
are retailed to the general public. Despite this substantial offtake the price of this thir-
teen coin set plummeted to nearly $5 through the early 1990's. This set contained
remarkable coins but could be purchased for less than a 50% premium to face value!
This indicates a remarkable lack of demand. Where are these hordes of gem Ikes to-
day? For that matter where are the 1973 mint sets? They been cut apart for the Ikes
the gems, the varieties, and the coins which are hard to find from other sources since
people didn't bother saving rolls either.
<< <i> So, although I agree its a collectible coin, you need one if you're going to collect Ikes, or a a 1973 year set, or maybe even a 20th century type set, but if you own the that 1973-D MS68 Ike, you have to bear in mind that PCGS has only graded 1168 your MS68 would be the 1169th one) 73-Ds out of a total of 1,769, 258 made, distributed & probably mostly saved as none were released for circulation. >>
Yes. It's true that these coins were mostly saved and even though some found their
way to circulation these were the exception rather than the rule. They were saved
by children who didn't know yet that clad was crap, they were saved by the advanced
collectors who bought their coins on TV, they were saved by just about anyone who was
willing to pay the $1.50 to acquire them. While there were few collectors there was a real
dirth of serious collectors. There were a mere handful who knew coins and how to care
for them, there were fewer still who cared enough about quality to seek them out. Now
the few remaining sets are being checked to find the coins that may have survived these
rigors. Even in nice original sets these coins were rare so just where are they to come from?
There would have been few rolls saved but THERE WERE NONE MADE. There aren't great
old collections just waiting to come on the market when the price is right. The fed doesn't
have bags and bags of these stuffed in a warehouse just waiting for a bean counter to find
them. There aren't small hordes saved by those who prefer good metal to worthless paper.
There aren't bags and bags of them backing paper currency. There aren't millions of them
in European vaults just waiting to come home. You can't lift the floor boards in old houses
and have much chance of finding a small bag of them. You won't find them in many coin shops,
and you won't even find the gems and some major shows.
That so few have been graded is testament not to how many coins have been checked but
to how few nice ones have been found.
They are gone and what you see is what you get.
>>
cleaned up and reformatted in edit.