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This can't be good...

when one of the largest PSA registrants posts a message titled Disenchantment with PSA on another company's message board...
Where have you gone Dave Vargha
CU turns its lonely eyes to you
What's the you say, Mrs Robinson
Vargha bucks have left and gone away?

hey hey hey
hey hey hey
«13

Comments

  • im not even gonna open it cause i already know its davalillo on the SGC boards
  • I started a separate thread on this. Sorry for the duplicate thread.
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭
    Yah ok goodriddance. Like your not over there religously reading the few posts that are
    made each day.
    image

    aconte
  • i read the sgc board because i like MW's knowledge and insights (save for the pointless psa bashing).

    i only knew he was talking about davalillo because i was reading the sgc board at the same time
  • He is venting and I dont blame him. Even if half of what PSA said/did to him is true. I submitt 15,000 cards hell yes I want favors and clerical help from time to time. I like psa cards and the grades 99% of the time are right on. That is why I have a tough time leaving PSA, I want to from time to time from all the problems. I have had minor issues from time to time and it gets old really quick and I wont submitt for a few months. But I like the boards and the grades are right on so I end up submitting hoping the next order will be correct. And for the record 7 submissions not one has ever been problem free. Davillo finally had his share of issues and walked away. I would have posted it here and made it my last.


    James

    And A personal note. I will take heat for it but I dont mind. PSA's customer Service is the worst I have ever seen in my entire life.
    x
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭
    I like to know what the Kellogg's guys like thegemmintman have to say about this post.

    I'd also be curious to hear zardoz's comments.

    I feel bad for the guy. A lot of card in one company's holder to be disenchanted.
    The hobby is suppose to be fun. But when you have that many cards graded,
    it becomes much more.

    aconte
  • aro13aro13 Posts: 1,961 ✭✭✭
    All of the issues that he raised on the post he has raised on this board in the past.

    Every once in a while somebody who no longer posts here slams PSA on other boards. Big deal. The only thing I question is when someone like botn slams PSA at every turn but still sells "recently graded" PSA cards in their auctions.
  • acowaacowa Posts: 945 ✭✭
    I wouldn't be shocked if the SGC board crashes from all of the people on this board taking a looksie. I don't think they're used to very much traffic over there. I am glad that Davilillo's got a place to vent.


    Regards,



    Alan


  • << <i>6)There are not many individuals withy a broad knowledge of vintage cards of PSA's Message Boards. To many, vintage means 1970 Kellogg. There are collectors with detailed knowledge about a specific set in the 1960s or 1970s and there a couple of pretty witty guys but it is not very informative if your interest ins vintage cards. With Greg banned and Mike Schmidt off to business school, it has continued to deteriorate. >>



    Is this fair? I don't think so.
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Is this fair? I don't think so. >>



    Hey I agree with you! As an Sgc guy, I'll stay under the radar in regards to those comments.

    aconte


  • Lest I think he's right on the money, could somebody please direct me to a recent thread on this forum that was educated, instructive and informative devoid of a lot of petty complaints and bashing of one another or some whining involving a personal collection.

    In the three years I've been here, the discussions have deteriorated. (Ouch, that felt like a self-inflicted gunshot wound.)

    Back to Davalillo...if he thinks this board has deteriorated, wait 'til he gets a load of the stuff over there. Now THAT becomes tiresome.
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Back to Davalillo...if he thinks this board has deteriorated, wait 'til he gets a load of the stuff over there. Now THAT becomes tiresome. >>



    Now there is an unbiased and informative post filled with facts.

    aconte
  • do you need specific evidence of biased trash talking against psa on the sgc boards? cause i can give you several hundred examples
  • FBFB Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    I think that he makes some valid points.

    For SMR to be a continued viable tool - the prices should more accurately reflect the sales. Not an easy task for anyone but more effort should be made.

    And yes - many of us on the PSA boards have specific knowledge of one to three sets and general knowledge of others. But, to be honest... how many of us have the time or money to have knowledge of, let alone work on (or pay for) dozens if not 100+ different sets from multiple sports? I know my limitations.

    Too bad his disenchantment has reached this point.

    Never met him. Emailed a few times and just missed a Davalillo sighting at Fort Washington once.
    Frank Bakka
    Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
    Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!

    lynnfrank@earthlink.net
    outerbankyank on eBay!
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭


    << <i>Lest I think he's right on the money, could somebody please direct me to a recent thread on this forum that was educated, instructive and informative devoid of a lot of petty complaints and bashing of one another or some whining involving a personal collection. >>



    Huh? Your kidding...right?

    John
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭

    I believe Davalillo just threw a hanging curve to Wentz.....expect him to hit this one out of the yard.

    John
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭


    << <i>do you need specific evidence of biased trash talking against psa on the sgc boards? cause i can give you several hundred examples >>



    OOHHH! That's the detoriation that is being referred to. No, I don't need the examples. I probably
    spend as much time as you reading the posts on the Sgc forum. So thanks.
    I'm aware of it. But there are members here that make this board no
    different. So relax.

    aconte
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭


    << <i>I believe Davalillo just threw a hanging curve to Wentz.....expect him to hit this one out of the yard. >>



    Basilone. Now that was colorful and informative. LoL.

    I think Barry Bonds will even be proud of this dinger. MW1 should have this sitting in McCovey's
    Cove for sure!

    aconte


  • << <i>

    << <i>do you need specific evidence of biased trash talking against psa on the sgc boards? cause i can give you several hundred examples >>



    OOHHH! That's the detoriation that is being referred to. No, I don't need the examples. I probably
    spend as much time as you reading the posts on the Sgc forum. So thanks.
    I'm aware of it. But there are members here that make this board no
    different. So relax.

    aconte >>



    yeah i know, but people on the CU forums whine about any and everything, while the SGC guys only whine about the PSA juggernaut
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭


    << <i>while the SGC guys only whine about the PSA juggernaut >>



    Actually that is not true. We whine about other c-rap too. We just don't always post
    it directly on the forums. The juggernaut comment is funny. Here I thought you
    did not have a sense of humor. My bad...

    aconte
  • I have met as well as exchanged e-mails with the President of PSA, Joe Orlando, and have found him very cooperative and helpful. I wonder what particular "favors" Davilillo wanted from Joe.

    Joe Orlando has suggested that collectors e-mail him with any suggested changes for the SMR. I did this, and my request was accompanied by factual/verifiable examples of supporting transactions, including both eBay and major auction results. In the very next SMR my suggested changes were incorporated. I was impressed.

    I think most would agree that PSA is not perfect in grading cards. I'm sure that trimmed or otherwise doctored cards get through on occasion. Nobody's perfect. But I think the amount that get by is miniscule -- perhaps less than 3/100th of 1% (as a guess). And at least from my experience PSA is the most accurate, consistent and reliable company insofar as card authentication and grading is concerned.

    As for Davilillo's comment that "There are not many individuals with a broad knowledge of vintage cards of PSA's Message Boards"... I think that is an insult to all who post here. Whenever someone has a question about a vintage card, it seems that at least one person on this PSA message board will always be able to help out.

    Skycap
  • pcpc Posts: 743
    i think davalillos biggest problem which he cant seem to
    confront may be his plastic collecting addiction.
    Money is your ticket to freedom.
  • My take on this whole deal is simple. I use and like both companies. Cards that i plan to resell on the bay or at shows i send to PSA while most cards for my personal collection that i intend to pass down to my son when my collecting days are over, i send to SGC. I really like their holder and while this may P off several here, i think their grading is more consistent. As for the customer service, I won't even get into that, but Davillios post is probably accurate. What i like is that I can and have spent 30 minutes or more on the phone with one of the tops execs at SGC and I am not a huge submitter. If the resell prices ever get more comparable, i will rethink my whole process.

    Braves
  • I don't know this Davalillo cat, but his ghost seems to linger over this board. From what I've read, it seems that Davalillo is frustrated and rightly so. I don't think his list of complaints is as important as his general attitude. Here's a guy that has spend 100K on grading and is a definite heavy in the collecting world. He's not asking for any grade changes or backroom deals, rather, he wants a bit of respect and treatment as an important customer. I don't think that is unfair.

    PSA is a monopoly right now. The alternative grading companies aren't suitable. The frustration comes from the fact that there's no place else to turn. In most cases, we can buy Michelin tires if we're unhappy with Goodyear. We can buy Nike if we feel our Adidas are made poorly. We're accustomed to a freedom of choice. There is no freedom of choice in the card grading industry. PSA is not at fault. They've put together a system that works for the majority of collectors and their cards demand the highest price. That's good business. However, a company like this has a responsibility to remember its best clients.

    If you showed up at your favorite restaurant every Friday for ten years and you requested a special table, wouldn't you be upset if it was given to tourists in black socks and sandals? Wouldn't you be annoyed if the service stunk for you? Would you expect to be charged extra for a pasta substitution after ten years?

    PSA does nothing to reward their best customers. I'm not talking about favorable grades which seem to be the norm for authorized dealers. I'm just talking about common courtesy. I would expect politeness if my request wasn't met. Rudeness is not something I could tolerate.

    I've caught the old flesh garden hose in my derriere on occasions too numerous to mention. I've actually saved scans of cards inferior to mine graded two levels above sitting in PSA authorized dealers inventories - check out Maraya's 1949 Bowman Paige: It's an 8 with bent corners. I've seen it in person. I've tried to cross over cards purchased from Bleam at ridiculous prices and haven't been able to at all (One out of ten). However, I've found the same thing with GAI and SGC. They play their own games. It's not endemic to one company. I had Baker et al explain a centering issue on a card that was 50/50 l to r and t to b. Later that day, I found the same card with 90/10 r to l that received a higher grade and didn't compare. It's how the ball bounces.

    All we want as collectors is fairness and some customer service. We don't ask for anything beyond that. If a card is supposed to be checked by two graders, then it should be checked. We pay these companies a lot of money. There used to be a motto - "The customer is always right'. It seems like "the customer is never right and he's a pain in our butt". I think Davalillo just wanted a certain amount of respect and fairness. It's extended everywhere else in the business world. Rookies get punched out on corner pitches while Barry Bonds has a much tighter strike zone. He's earned it.

    PSA is too strong for any single customer to do it harm. Joe knows this. He doesn't want to be bothered with special requests or complaints. I don't know what he actually does, but customer calls cut into his time. If he starts taking calls, where does he draw the line? Who is important enough?

    This leads back to one conclusion - Baseball cards are a hobby. The grading systems have made investing in them like gambling in a casino. The house holds a huge edge. You have to love the cards and accept the grades. You can fight city hall to an extent, but the time and money take away from the one pleasurable thing we look forward to besides having our wives tell us why we suck. The cards have to be more important than the grades. I feel for Davalillo. I have the same concerns. I just refuse to let the grading companies ruin my passion. I'm not investing. I'm escaping. I can't put a price on that. Somewhere inside, we all know the truth. It's sad, but the alternative is worse.

    Thanks for reading,

    Satan
  • pcpc Posts: 743
    i wouldnt want someone to spend 30 minutes on the phone with me
    unless they brought in MAJOR revenue.whay you would give your son
    inferior graded cards is beyond my comprehension but to each one's own.
    Money is your ticket to freedom.
  • aconteaconte Posts: 2,053 ✭✭✭
    Psatan,

    One question:

    If there aren't any suitable alternative grading companies to Psa, why are you trying to cross
    over cards? Just curious. Maybe I do not understand part of your post.

    aconte
  • If anyone doesn't think that good stuff gets posted on this board, read PSAtan's last post.

    The grading systems have made investing in them like gambling in a casino. The house holds a huge edge.

    Like gambling, making a living in graded cards is what they call a "hard dollar". There's a game you have to play, and some play it better than others. If any of the game players have a conscience, they need to take a long, hot shower every night to cleanse themselves of the stench of ugliness that surrounds this (and most other) hobbies - eBay garbage, back-door grading, sociopathic dealers, greedy kids, PayPal fees, etc.

    Davalillo is Icarus; he's flown a little too high with this hobby, and the stakes get pretty high at that altitude. He's got a right to be angry . . .


    In other news, I LOVE Notre Dame +10 this weekend. You think Ty Willingham will let his team get blown out? Not a chance.
    image
    POTD = 09/03/2003
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Not that it matters to anyone else, but my personal experience with PSA is that they have provided excellent customer service to me ever since they got through the growing pains of the late 90s. And I don't consider myself to be anywhere near a major customer. I've found if you're non confrontational and patient in talking to them, they will be willing to listen. If you go in and hit them over the head or start ranting the moment you hear something you don't like, then maybe they won't be as compromising. I'm not sure of the details behind Davalillo's discussions, but I'm surprised they wouldn't be helpful with reasonable requests. I've only submitted maybe 5,000 cards so far and they have always been easy to work with if a problem arises.
  • I can tell you that I certainly find his comments about the knowledge of vintage collectors on this board to be somewhat insulting. However, I don't need re-assurance from anyone on my knowledge so who really cares what he thinks. We all need to keep in mind there's an entire world of very knowledgeable collectors out there. Just because they aren't posting messages here doesn't mean they don't exist. I only say they because I've read a great deal of threads from some of these egotistical people that think the world of vintage collecting begins and ends with them. Grow-up.

    I haven't been on this board for all that long...that's true. Therefore I really don't know many of you all that well, and most of you don't know me at all. But I've been collecting vintage cards my entire life and am considered by most that know me to be a bit over the top. Well....addicted beyond reform actually.

    I know I have a lot of knowledge on many vintage sets. So do others on this board. Now if Davalillo is speaking about some of the insulting and unproductive threads...that's another story. He may have a point there.

    With his knowledge I hate to seem him go, but this ego think he has going is somewhat out of hand. Relax. Take in the good and filter out the bad. It's all good image
    There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
  • acowaacowa Posts: 945 ✭✭
    If you're insulted by the comments...this is not the first time they have been posted. Link to 1st go round It all started here. I challenged him on the statement and with the exception of Basilone, everyone pretty much left me high and dry.


    Regards,


    Alan
  • I'm sorry, but I sure would like to see any posts that Davilillo posted here that were anything other than condescending and non-informative. I for one enjoy the boards here.

    I'm sorry that he has such a large investment in PSA graded cards and is not happy, but he needs to get over it.

    This is a hobby.

    I think he forgot a while back that collecting cards is about learning more about the players of the game, or reminiscing about ones youth and not about some ego-driven goal of getting every set in PSA 8 plastic. In the end- he made the choice to collect the sets he does in PSA 8 plastic. He needs to either be OK with that fact, or he needs to put his collection on the block.

    My reaction to his post: childish!
  • mrc32,

    I think you hit the nail on the head. If he's unhappy with his decisions, then do something about it and move on. No use dwelling on the past.

    Forgive me if I state the obvious, but by posting something on the SGC board, one is assured that it will be discussed here if it is at all contraversial. So, has he really left this board?

    Dr S. of the Dead Donkeys MC
  • Aconte,

    I tried to cross over cards for upgrades on cards I felt were a grade or two too low. Also, I wanted to become familiar with GAI. Last, I did some plain cross-overs as an overall precaution act. I know about WIWAG and Real Legends and I believe there are huge problems with the population report. I don't want to have all my eggs in one basket. Some of my crossovers give me a chance to participate in the GAI set registry too. I'm not a heavy hitter and don't mind shooting it out on a new frontier. I don't have the money, time or strong cards from childhood that would ever allow me to even get close on the sets I collect. I don't mind being a slightly bigger fish in a smaller pond. However, I would never dispute that PSA is the #1 company and their slabbed cards sell for the most.

    Hope this makes some sense,

    Satan

  • Davalillo's problem, which he may or may not be aware of just yet?

    He's hit the wall on several of his sets. There are some low pop commons that he can't afford in PSA 8, as rarely as they come around his neck of the woods and his "buy cheap" efforts. His strategy is to buy in bulk, grade in bulk and upgrade as time goes by. I've got news for him. He's gonna be stuck at 90-99% on a bunch of his sets.

    For those who don't believe me, take a look at some of them. He's got some 4's and 5's in those sets. He's mired in quicksand and it's starting to get to him.

    Quick, fit that boy with a strait jacket.image


  • << <i>My reaction to his post: childish! >>

    - I agree with you. Plus arrogant as he!!.


  • One thing about Davalillo jumping from the PSA board to SGC...

    it raised the average IQ of both boards.image
  • It's nice to read the boards without someone bragging about their collection all the time.

    Its just cardboard and plastic. I hope everyone else is having "fun" with this hobby. I know i am.


    image
  • Some of you probably remember when Davallilo joined the psa board about 2 years ago he said that his goal was to complete about 75 sets in psa 8 or better in 2 years. There was many, many posts saying that he could or couldn't do it. Anyways it's 2 years later and he has made very impressive headway but is no where close to his goal. Perhaps there is some truth in what Toppsgun is saying - maybe some frustration is setting in.

    There really wasn't anything new in his post on the sgc board that he hasn't already said except perhaps slamming the knowledge of this board. I admit that beyone 2 particular sets, I have very little knowledge. But that is a large part of why I'm here. If I already knew it all then this wouldn't be very much fun. There are a few here with tremendous knowledge but other than those few we all benefit from each other having quite a bit of knowledge on our specific sets. I don't have any problem with anything Jim said but if he is looking down on members here for not having a vast knowledge of card collecting as a whole then I have a problem with that. Jim has always been very fair and generous to deal with but let's not start hitting below the belt. I confess - I don't have that much knowledge. But I know a lot more than I did 2 years ago.

    Wayne
    1955 Bowman Football


  • << <i>I like to know what the Kellogg's guys like thegemmintman have to say about this post. >>



    Aconte, I'll chime in with a few thoughts...


    Davalillo said,

    << <i>As a way of introducing myself, I believe I am the largest owner of psa-graded cards in the country(close to 20,000) >>


    Well I know that KING KELLOGG has over 20,000 cards. STRIKE ONE!



    Then Davalillo said,

    << <i>There are not many individuals withy a broad knowledge of vintage cards of PSA's Message Boards. >>



    Well I guess this includes Davalillo because he rarely assisted anyone on the board who had a question. Just because we don't all post everything we know about vintage doesn't mean we lack knowledge. Some know much more than others, but it seems that when someone needs an answer to a difficult question someone else will step up and answer the question. STRIKE TWO!





    << <i>To many, vintage means 1970 Kellogg. There are collectors with detailed knowledge about a specific set in the 1960s or 1970s and there a couple of pretty witty guys but it is not very informative if your interest ins vintage cards. >>



    PSA themselves refer to and categorize 1970 cards as vintage. Every reasonable person I know thinks 1970 cards are vintage. Oh and now he is saying that 1960's aren't vintage? STRIKE THREE! Yer outta there Vic!!


    I would agree with Davalillo however that he deserves more consideration from PSA for his extremely large investment he has made with them, and he is correct in pointing out that the SMR is in large part a shambles.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    i believe Jim's collection is amazing and his audacity to even attempt so many sets in such high grade is quite daring.

    and who knows he has a very straight talking sort of way and he may have indeed had some issues w/ PSA's managment...this hobby is small niche and big costumers should be treated well.

    however PSA is a much better company now than it was just a few years ago.

    they got rid of baker and company which is a good thing

    they implemented guarantee grading times

    they invented the PSA registry which is free.

    and even the SMR has grown to incorporate many different issues.

    there are many improvements to be made yet. but i think that focusing only on the negatives wont improve anything.

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • What toppsgun said (at 2:54 PM) makes sense. I noticed that Davalillo is collecting 136 sets and is at 100% in 8.0 in only 15 of them. If his happiness is measured in completion of all these sets in 8.0 or higher, that may explain his frustration. In my opinion, it would be better to concentrate on 10 or less sets.

    Skycap


  • << <i>It's nice to read the boards without someone bragging about their collection all the time.

    Its just cardboard and plastic. I hope everyone else is having "fun" with this hobby. I know i am. >>




    I think that pretty much says it all.
    There is a fine line between "hobby" and "mental illness"
  • It may just be a hobby, but Davilillo can still continue to belittle his fellow collectors. Despite what Davalillo says about this board's lack of knowledge, I for one have learned a great deal from many of the postings. I can't remember Davilillo adding many useful comments besides his opinions about customer service and his whining about his investmetn venture.

    Hopefully, he will keep his arrogant attitude on the other forums.
  • jackstrawjackstraw Posts: 3,779 ✭✭✭
    i bet i have bought 20000+ coffees at the local donut shop! when i drive up the women knows my name says hello alittle small talk and its off to work. i don't expect free joes or donuts! i don't expect to be able to drive around customers in front of me and i dont complain when they raise the price or change something.
    he kind of reminds me of this kid in the neighborhood , if things were not going his way, he would take his hockey net or baseball bat and go home,and leave us poor kids with no net or batimage
    Collector Focus

    ON ITS WAY TO NEWPORT BEACH, CA 92658
  • How can you even listen to anything said from a guy who collects PSA 8s, that in and of itself says it all...if it aint a 9 or 10 i dont even want to look at it. If I invested the amount of $ in 8s that he has, I'd be frustrated too. Who the heck wants to corner the market on 8s...it's absurd.

    EO
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,116 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Also, if Davalillo is looking for knowledgable collectors on truly vintage cards, I'd recommend the network54 forum. There aren't many prewar collectors who regularly post on either the PSA or SGC forums. The network54 forums consider anything post-1950 to be new cards. He should feel right at home over there.
  • EOMINT,

    I agree that a collection of PSA 8 cards is less impressive than Davilillo might think, most people including Davalillo work within budget constraints. Not everyone can have world-class collections like Branca, Siegel, Merkle and Fogel.

    Davilillo is just carving out a niche for himself in this hobby, although it does not seem like he is having much fun doing so.

    z2345
  • handymanhandyman Posts: 5,381 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Im glad PSA put him down when he asked for favors, This is not mexico and Im glad PSA will stand up to a situation like this. I dont want to spend 1000.00 of my hard earned money on a favor! would you!
  • kobykoby Posts: 1,699 ✭✭
    What has Davalillo contributed to this forum?

    Knowledge about cards?

    No

    Insight about some of the sets he has collected?

    Nope.


    This is what I remember:

    (1) Putting down members of this forum for lack of knowledge.

    (2) Threatening PSA dealers with GAI inventory.

    (3) Arguments about whether 1970 cards are vintage.

    (4) Asking BJ to delete some of the player and HOF sets from the registry.

    (5) Putting down sets that he does not collect.

    (6) Whining about the SMR but never submitting data to SMR editors.

    (7) Bragging about being one of the biggest collectors.

    (8) Quitting the forum as a gesture of protest for his mistreatment.

    (9) Indifference from forum members about his departure.


    When I compare Davalillo's departure to that of other members, I note that Davalillo did not have quite as many fans as some of the other recently departed members. There was no reinstate Davilillo thread like the one for BOTN. There was no show of support and concerned inquiries like the one for CrazySC. There was no good luck wishes fro future endeavors like the many on behalf of MikeSchmidt. In fact, if I remember correctly, there was a collective "glad that pompus ass is gone" attitude upon Davalillo's departure.

    That is how I feel today. Money can buy you a lot of PSA 8 cards, but you have yet to demostrate some class.


  • MantlefanMantlefan Posts: 1,079 ✭✭
    I have generally been a "supporter" of Davallilo on these boards, but I am disappointed that he feels the need to run to the SGC site to complain. He posted his beefs on this board awhile ago and said goodbye. That should have been it.

    I have submitted thousands of cards to PSA and I have been very satisfied with their service. I do not seek clerical favors. I realize the limitations of the SMR and I do not feel there is a lack of vintage expertise on this forum. This is a HOBBY! I enjoy the boards and I see no deterioration in the 18 months I've been here. Time to move on, Jim.
    Frank

    Always looking for 1957 Topps BB in PSA 9!
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