Roughly 2,100 were sold with Randall's estate, but possible hundreds more were dispersed before the estate sale. The hoard contained mostly 1818 cents (about 1,400), followed by 1820 N-13, which is the most famous/popular of the Randall Hoard coins. The dates range from 1816-1821 (there are differences of opinion to this fact). I would guess that the hoard was closer to 3,000 coins when found in the 1860's.
Shortly after the Civil War, a large keg was found beneath an old railway platform in Georgia. Upon opening, it was discovered to contain approximately 14,000 large cents dated from 1816 through 1820. All the coins were uncirculated, but many showed carbon flecks from moisture in the atmosphere. The keg was sold to a dry-goods merchant in Norwich, New York who attempted to pass the old coins out to customers as a publicity stunt, but many people refused what was by that time an unfamiliar coin. The remainder of the keg was sold to John Randall, a Norwich coin collector, for 90 cents on the dollar. Randall sold the coins off slowly over the years, in spite of the rumors that they were restrikes. In 1878, as part of Randall's estate, the remaining 2,116 Coronet cents from the hoard were sold at public auction. The 1819s brought $1.28 each, but most of the other dates realized only 5-7 cents apiece. Almost all mint state cents from 1816-1820, many of which still possess original mint red color, are from Randall's hoard. Dates from the 1820s, however, are quite rare in mint state.
if memory serves correct, the majority of the coins were corroded beyond recognition. only a small % of the original hoard was actually worthy of dispersal
Louis, I have heard the "13,000" number tossed about over the years, but I never really bought into it. Until the 1878 Cogan sale of Randall's collection, nothing regarding the actual hoard find was well documented. At least I have never heard of any contemporary documentation. I am willing to bet that a Georgia newspaper from the time of the hoard exists and probably includes some neat information. I have also heard many different opinions regarding the number of kegs in the hoard. Opinions range from 1 (most accepted) to 6 or 7.
13,000 just seems like too many cents to fit into 1 keg of any size. Remember that we are not talking about Lincoln Cents here. Also, is it possible for a store of any size back in the 1860's-70's to pass out over 10,000 large cents to customers as part of a gimmick? I guess it's possible...... We also know that Randall sold some of the coins to collectors. The point is that we know that the hoard was LARGE. How large? 3,000......5,000......13,000??
There's another thing that has often bothered me about the Randall Hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg.
My theory is that the coins were all acquired in 1820-21 by "the hoarder". I base my theory based on the fact that we have handled hundreds of Randall Hoard cents over the years and we have a special appreciation for these coins (and early copper in general). Of the hundreds of Randall coins that we have handled, the 1820 N-13's always seem to have the greatest state of surface preservation (lack of wear). I have also noticed that the 1816-18 cents seem more likely to show signs of wear. In fact, many of the certified 1816-18 Randall coins that are graded as MS-61 through 63 usually are really AU-55 through MS-60 (by conventional grading standards). It seems that if an early copper has any red color remaining whatsoever, a grading service is inclined to assign an MS grade. The point is that the later the date, the better the condition. This is OUR opinion based on OUR experience. There's a wide range in opinions on the subject of the Randall hoard. We like to take all of the information from various sources and add our own experience when developing opinions on the subject. Maybe one day that newspaper will surface!
We have a few Randall coins in stock that are not for sale to forum members, but are fun to look at. Randall Coin Images
.......one more side note: I wonder how many 1820 cents are called "Randall Hoard" cents, when in reality they were not part of the Randall Hoard.......?
<< <i> There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
<< <i> There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
David Bowers say's in his book that the blank plachettes were shiped to the mint in kegs that typicaly held about 14,000 planchettes. He then said these coins were found in a small keg and estimated bewtween 5,000 and 10,000 coins. My guess would be this was too many in high condition for someone to pick out of circulation. I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. Also don't forget the term "uncirculated" is a grade of coin condition as it pertains to this subject and not whether the coin was actually used in circulation.
<< <i>I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. >>
So the mint or a bank would place uncirculated Large Cents in a keg over the course of 6 YEARS before realeasing them to the public? Not likely. Keep in mind, dates of 1816 through 1821 were reported in the find. If all the coins were of the same date, then you would have a point.
<< <i> There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
David Bowers say's in his book that the blank plachettes were shiped to the mint in kegs that typicaly held about 14,000 planchettes. He then said these coins were found in a small keg and estimated bewtween 5,000 and 10,000 coins. My guess would be this was too many in high condition for someone to pick out of circulation. I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. Also don't forget the term "uncirculated" is a grade of coin condition as it pertains to this subject and not whether the coin was actually used in circulation. >>
It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon.
The true story of the Randall hoard is lost in rumer and speculation.
Rumer--Randall heard the Philly Mint was holding several kegs of large cents and traveled there to buy them all for 1 cent each. His logic was to earn a 3 or 4 hundred percent profit from dealers and collectors.
Rumer--One of the kegs was purchased by a Chicago dealer who also had a business in Marietta, Georgia. Fleeing the South in 1860, on one of the last trains out, he was forced to hide this keg under the station platform. It was found there in the early 1980s during historical restroration.
<< <i>The true story of the Randall hoard is lost in rumer and speculation.
Rumer--Randall heard the Philly Mint was holding several kegs of large cents and traveled there to buy them all for 1 cent each. His logic was to earn a 3 or 4 hundred percent profit from dealers and collectors.
Rumer--One of the kegs was purchased from a Chicago dealer who also had a business in Marietta, Georgia. Fleeing the South in 1860, on one of the last trains out, he was forced to hide this keg under the station platform. It was found there in the early 1980s during historical restroration.
>>
There is documentation that refers to these coins in 1869 so I think we can throw out the theory of them being found in 1980. Also I just don't think it would be possible back then for someone to pick out this many of these certain dates and die variaties out of circulation- surely if this was the case there would have been much more of a mixture. But there is no way for anyone to know anything for sure.
<< <i>It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon. >>
That's actually true. But I'd still be surprised if all these coins were placed in this keg by the mint.
<< <i>It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon. >>
That's actually true. But I'd still be surprised if all these coins were placed in this keg by the mint. >>
If all the coins were in "mint state" condition then it would be believable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.
Placid
Posts: 11,301 ✭✭✭
Comments
This Cent is said to be from the Randall Hoard.
K S
13,000 just seems like too many cents to fit into 1 keg of any size. Remember that we are not talking about Lincoln Cents here. Also, is it possible for a store of any size back in the 1860's-70's to pass out over 10,000 large cents to customers as part of a gimmick? I guess it's possible...... We also know that Randall sold some of the coins to collectors. The point is that we know that the hoard was LARGE. How large? 3,000......5,000......13,000??
There's another thing that has often bothered me about the Randall Hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg.
My theory is that the coins were all acquired in 1820-21 by "the hoarder". I base my theory based on the fact that we have handled hundreds of Randall Hoard cents over the years and we have a special appreciation for these coins (and early copper in general). Of the hundreds of Randall coins that we have handled, the 1820 N-13's always seem to have the greatest state of surface preservation (lack of wear). I have also noticed that the 1816-18 cents seem more likely to show signs of wear. In fact, many of the certified 1816-18 Randall coins that are graded as MS-61 through 63 usually are really AU-55 through MS-60 (by conventional grading standards). It seems that if an early copper has any red color remaining whatsoever, a grading service is inclined to assign an MS grade. The point is that the later the date, the better the condition. This is OUR opinion based on OUR experience. There's a wide range in opinions on the subject of the Randall hoard. We like to take all of the information from various sources and add our own experience when developing opinions on the subject. Maybe one day that newspaper will surface!
We have a few Randall coins in stock that are not for sale to forum members, but are fun to look at. Randall Coin Images
.......one more side note: I wonder how many 1820 cents are called "Randall Hoard" cents, when in reality they were not part of the Randall Hoard.......?
<< <i>
There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
EXACTLY!!!!!
<< <i>
<< <i>
There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
David Bowers say's in his book that the blank plachettes were shiped to the mint in kegs that typicaly held about 14,000 planchettes. He then said these coins were found in a small keg and estimated bewtween 5,000 and 10,000 coins. My guess would be this was too many in high condition for someone to pick out of circulation. I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. Also don't forget the term "uncirculated" is a grade of coin condition as it pertains to this subject and not whether the coin was actually used in circulation.
<< <i>I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. >>
So the mint or a bank would place uncirculated Large Cents in a keg over the course of 6 YEARS before realeasing them to the public? Not likely. Keep in mind, dates of 1816 through 1821 were reported in the find. If all the coins were of the same date, then you would have a point.
<< <i>
<< <i>
<< <i>
There's another thing that has often bothered me about the randall hoard coins: People often state that ALL of the coins were uncirculated. This is illogical. Whoever placed the coins in a keg probably pulled the coins from circulation and we simply saving one cent coins for a rainy day. The only way that all of the coins could have been uncirculated is if the hoarder obtained the coins from a bank (or the mint) on a regular basis from 1816 through 1821 and then placed them directly into a keg. >>
EXACTLY!!!!! >>
David Bowers say's in his book that the blank plachettes were shiped to the mint in kegs that typicaly held about 14,000 planchettes. He then said these coins were found in a small keg and estimated bewtween 5,000 and 10,000 coins. My guess would be this was too many in high condition for someone to pick out of circulation. I would guess this was a keg from the mint or a bank. Also don't forget the term "uncirculated" is a grade of coin condition as it pertains to this subject and not whether the coin was actually used in circulation. >>
It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon.
Rumer--Randall heard the Philly Mint was holding several kegs of
large cents and traveled there to buy them all for 1 cent each. His
logic was to earn a 3 or 4 hundred percent profit from dealers and collectors.
Rumer--One of the kegs was purchased by a Chicago dealer who also
had a business in Marietta, Georgia. Fleeing the South in 1860, on one of the
last trains out, he was forced to hide this keg under the station platform. It was
found there in the early 1980s during historical restroration.
<< <i>The true story of the Randall hoard is lost in rumer and speculation.
Rumer--Randall heard the Philly Mint was holding several kegs of
large cents and traveled there to buy them all for 1 cent each. His
logic was to earn a 3 or 4 hundred percent profit from dealers and collectors.
Rumer--One of the kegs was purchased from a Chicago dealer who also
had a business in Marietta, Georgia. Fleeing the South in 1860, on one of the
last trains out, he was forced to hide this keg under the station platform. It was
found there in the early 1980s during historical restroration.
There is documentation that refers to these coins in 1869 so I think we can throw out the theory of them being found in 1980
Also I just don't think it would be possible back then for someone to pick out this many of these certain dates and die variaties out of circulation- surely if this was the case there would have been much more of a mixture. But there is no way for anyone to know anything for sure.
<< <i>It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon. >>
That's actually true. But I'd still be surprised if all these coins were placed in this keg by the mint.
<< <i>
<< <i>It's also important to keep in mind that in the early 1800's, Mint employees didn't always strike coins bearing the current date--using dies that were 1, 2, 3, 4 or even 5 years old wasn't too uncommon. >>
That's actually true. But I'd still be surprised if all these coins were placed in this keg by the mint. >>
If all the coins were in "mint state" condition then it would be believable.
Worry is the interest you pay on a debt you may not owe.