PR69 DCAM vs PR70DCAM

boston

When it comes to the latest coinage, what is the difference, other than the slab of 69 or 70 grade? The grader?
Don't get me wrong, I collect Siver Eagles and silver state quarters in PR69DCAM. The only difference is if the grader does find a flaw,
and of course, the price.
I don't believe the flaw is evident to the eye when the 69 grade is assigned, and I believe the 70 grade could pass to most collectors,
if flawed, except for the best numisist.
I would like to know what could keep a coin at a 69 grade. What attributes make a coin a 70, and is it really flawless?

CThomas

If it's in a PCGS holder you can guarantee it's flawless!

supercoin

Rcently grade PR70s that I've seen have all been deserving of the grade. But there are a lot of PR69s out there that are equally deserving and didn't get lucky. There is definitely a "crap shoot" aspect to it.

You need to be careful of some of the older PR70s, there are many that definitely do NOT deserve the grade. My theory on that (never officially discounted) is that the PCGS graders were suffering from new-carpet-installation fumes for a while.

One of the most egregious examples is the Ike dollar PR70s. All but 2 of the existing PR70s came from ONE submission, a coincidence that defies the party line, and all that I have seen from that submission are completely unremarkable hazy examples. I fully expect that NONE would grade PR70 today. At least two have been subsequently downgraded (one by me).

If you're a collector, my advice is to buy the coin, not the slab... and buy it in a PR69 slab to save a bundle.

Of course, if you're a speculator, the PR70s are where the action is as far as price movement.

littlewicher

If the 1963 PCGS PR70 DCAM Lincoln Cent is an average sample of 70s, then all 70s are overgraded. Actually there are a lot of terrible PR70s, and a lot better examples can be had in the PR69 grade.

Typetone

I own 6 70DCAMS. They all look flawless to me under 5x. However, I have returned about 10 70DCAMs in buying my six. Each of those had at least one visable flaw. The PCGS definition for a 70 is flawless under 5x. I have a number of 69DCAMs. On most of those I can find some small flaw under 5x. On a few I can't but have not been able to get them upgraded. The lessons for me are: 1.) Be careful when buying a 70DCAM to make sure it is flawless, and 2.) You can find what seem to be flawless 69DCAMs, those might be a good buy.

Greg

MoneyLA

Ive never owned a modern pr70dcam with one exception -- a clad kennedy -- which I bought for speculation purposes only since Im not a kennedy collector. One of our distinguished board members here took a look at it and declined buying it, and I eventually sold it on eBay for a nice profit.

With that said, let me just recall that Ive had a lot of experience with proof-70 washingtons from the 1960-64 period, and I think at one time I owned about 20-percent of the known pcgs pr70 pieces pieces. There is only one pr70dcam and that one I did not have.

You might recall that there was one of the pr70 coins that I was sure was not worthy and was returning it to pcgs (got it from ebay) for "review" when it was stolen out of the mail and led to a postal worker arrest.

anyway, getting back to the pr70 vs pr69 issue: as Ive said here before, you CAN SEE the difference in pr70 vs pr69 silver washingtons, and the difference is in the detail of the strike. frankly, pr69 and pr70 coins probably are both equal in their LACK of blemishes, but the coins getting the pr70 grade probably shows more detail in the strike.

put a pr69 and a pr70 side by side and you'll probably see for yourself.

cheers, alan mendelson

egsantos

In my Kennedy set I have 38 PR70DCAM's.
It's interesting because some looks "ugly" than a PR69DCAM, because I, personally like the "all white" proofs, but when you look under a 5X or 10X that coins are really beautifull and flawless.
I have two in special that deserves 70,5PRDCAM grade

Edson

Russ

<< <i>I don't believe the flaw is evident to the eye when the 69 grade is assigned >>



There are plenty of 69DCAMs with flaws visible to the naked eye - some glaringly so. While building my proof Kennedy set, I returned fully half the 69DCAMs I got in because I didn't believe they deserved that lofty grade. I've already returned three of the 2003 clads and am still looking for one. Frankly, when it comes to moderns, I think PCGS sometimes operates on auto-pilot for PR69DCAM.

Russ, NCNE

IrishMike

<< <i>If it's in a PCGS holder you can guarantee it's flawless! >>



Sorry couldn't let this one slide, go search the past archives of Teletrade for pf70DCAM washingtons, you will find dozens of them that are not only flawed, but down right ugly.

freakycoinfreak

The difference between 69 and 70 is usually based more on policy at the grading service than the coin itself. If you cant tell the difference with the grades covered up then why bother buying the difference?

coinrookie

Maybe there is a difference under magnification, But I have a 70 SBA and some 69 SBA`s. With the naked eye and grades covered I can say you would not be able to tell the difference. I bought the 70 just for the novelty. So for my money, I will stick with the naked eye flawless 69`s and be happy and have alot more coin money to spend.

boston

"So for my money, I will stick with the naked eye flawless 69`s and be happy and have alot more coin money to spend."



I can't agree more!

FrattLaw

PR69DCAM = good value

PR70DCAM = big ego

While I don't own any PCGS PR70DCAMs, nor would I. I do own 7 NGC PF70UCAMs. For the most part, it is hard to tell a true 69 from a true 70. I bought the NGC PF70s for ego reasons, a/k/a registry points as well as potential speculation. They were maybe 2x what the NGC PF69s were selling for. If they don't increase in value, no biggy, I didn't spend that much and I still get to be near the top of their Registry.

Otherwise, I wouldn't spend huge money on a PR/MS70 coin. I just don't see the value in it.

Michael

MoneyLA

On the "ego issue" -- it's all true. You get the registry points, and you also score ego points when you show your pr70 slabs to other collectors. Those of us here on the board might be immune, because all of us probably have a certain level of sophistication with our collecting and knowledge. But when you show your pr70 slabs to others -- at coins shops as I have done on occasion -- it's a HOOT to see their eyes open up!!

I dont have any more pr70s now (all sold with my registry set when it was #1)... but I keep my eyes out for a deal, and another ego-slab.

cheers, alan mendelson

egsantos

Hi Alan,

You are right.
The essence of a collection is put together things, what, in the botton line, represents the spirit of challenge.
You completed a #1 and you know the taste of achieve a realization.
For sure, a controllable portion of ego is necessary to reach a dream. However, it is positive because the great pinnacle just be reached with this component. People normally call it of competition.
My set is a dynamic challenger. No matter that currently is the All-Time #1. The goal is be better and better until reach the “Finest Possible Set Rating”. After that, who knows, probably I will sell it as you did.
Including have the big risk of the investment be compensatory.

Cheers,

Edson

psxchelly

I own an Ike Pr70dcam, and it isnt hazy nor ugly. I think it is one of my most favorite coins.. I also own several other pr70dcams and i dont have an ego about it.. I just like them.

Every time a thread like this is started, the same people mention the same things, and what it boils down to is this:

If a buyer thinks a coin is worth what they pay for it then go for it.. if you dont think its worth it dont buy it.

supercoin

Glad to hear you have a nice one... do you mind sharing whether your serial number in the 77329xx range? I'm wondering if I should stop maligning that whole bulk submission.

Here's one of them, by the way (subsequently downgraded):


There are two coins that were not in that bulk batch -- a 72-S and a 78-S. I know who made the 72-S, and if I recall correctly it was in the same time frame as the others. I think the 78-S was made some time before that, and was the first Ike PR70 made. It sold on Teletrade and the photo looked nice, though I didn't see it in person.

I would guess that in general 1978-S would be the most likely date to approach perfection.

wondercoin

I have said for years, that there is an additional element of PR70DCAM in my "personal book" and that is MONSTER DEEP, DEEP CAMEO surfaces. Now, find a MONSTER DEEP, DEEP CAMEO on these (especially for certain proof coins that typically do not come this way) coupled with the "near perfect" surfaces (for those strict perfectionists who can always find a flaw on a proof coin) and you get my interest.

A perfect example of this is the 1976(s) clad dime I bought for Doug Wright at the Heritage auction out of the retired Stokley collection (which he pictured here in the past). That coin was in a league of its own as far as I was concerned. Getting more modern, I also had a few monster deep, deep cameo OHIO silver quarters last year that were incredible and head and shoulders above the typical PR70DCAM.

Wondercoin

Typetone

I agree with Michelle, a true 70DCAM is a wonder to behold. The six I have are really beautiful. Even those with flaws that I didn't buy had that beautiful deep deep deep cameo look to them. The 70s also sometimes have just a touch of gold toning which just adds to the charm and uniqueness. I don't think they are just about ego, though I am the first to admit that many 69s approach the look.

Greg

boston

Thanks for the input from everyone. I feel that Wondercoin, when describing "MONSTER DEEP, DEEP CAMEO" probably
has the best description of a PR70DCAM. Every date and coinage will have it's limits of perfection, but the one that
jumps out at you and bites you in the a$$, is probably the true "70", providing there is not a flaw that disturbs you.

Rather than start another thread... If anyone of you had one of these true monsters, how would you grade another
PR70DCAM, of the same mintage, that obviously was not in the same league? Would you just consider it a freak of perfection,
or the standard to grade all others?

Bob

dollardude

I don't own and wouldn't purchase a PR70DCAM for that very reason. I own many PR69DCAMs. If I looked at one PR70DCAM that I thought was incredibly perfect and beautiful and bought it, and then later saw another PR70DCAM of the same date that was much nicer, I would be very sick indeed. I would be taking too big a risk financially. If I sent one in myself and it came back PR70DCAM, I would sell it and put the difference in a lower risk investment. If I was a millionaire and just wanted a PR70DCAM for my own enjoyment, and not as an investment or just to have the best registry set, I would buy it for myself. It wouldn't matter if there was a grading mistake. Unfortunately, I am not yet a millionaire, so I stick with high end PR69DCAMs. I don't see any difference with the naked eye between a high end PR69DCAM and a PR70DCAM anyway. The bottom line is that it's fine to own a PR70DCAM if you can afford it financially, are willing to accept the risk that it may have been misgraded, and it gives you pleasure.