Announcing The Clankeye Collection (insert trumpet blast)
Clankeye
Posts: 3,928 ✭
In a wholly unexpected move, I have started a Registry Set!
The Clankeye Collection of Washington Carver Commemorative Half Dollars. Here is the description:
"A collection of fine Washington Carver Commemorative coins, brought together not by numerical grade, but rather eye appeal and originality."
Lest anyone think I will not take it seriously, this is not the case.
I think it is fun to experience new things in life, and I care about Carvers and I care about coins... so I will toss my little pebble into the pond.
Howdy.
Clankeye
The Clankeye Collection of Washington Carver Commemorative Half Dollars. Here is the description:
"A collection of fine Washington Carver Commemorative coins, brought together not by numerical grade, but rather eye appeal and originality."
Lest anyone think I will not take it seriously, this is not the case.
I think it is fun to experience new things in life, and I care about Carvers and I care about coins... so I will toss my little pebble into the pond.
Howdy.
Clankeye
Brevity is the soul of wit. --William Shakespeare
0
Comments
Russ, NCNE
Mark
Welcome to this side of the street.
Ken
Why do I have the feeling that I might have just stumbled into something that could have "obsession" written all over it?
This should be fun.
Mark--when my pappy named me Clankeye, it was a very popular boy's name at the time.
Clankeye
In fact, starting over. I just sold my complete Carver set a few months ago (every coin was NGC65, so it wouldn't have counted anyway) and now I am starting fresh.
I do intend to post images.
Clankeye
<< <i>New series of stories for the Registry side......?? >>
I want people here to like me.
I will be quiet as a Church Mouse.
Besides Ken, you Mercateers have The Gatekeeper to write stories about you.
Clankeye
check it out
Excellent.
Now find me some coins to fill out my Reg set. And no 52-P's either. I'm talking the hard stuff!
Clankeye
09/07/2006
Look, Clank, if you really wanna fit in around here...
As long as you are going to be an outsider, I really WOULD appreciate pictures when you get the chance there!!
Welcome to Our World, Clank!
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
<< <i>...so I will toss my little pebble into the pond.
Clankeye >>
Even if there are never enough pebbles to make a road through the morass at the
very least we can watch the ripples and enjoy the distraction.
A bold and unexpected move... I thought you would have lobbied PCGS for a French One or Two Franc (1898-1920 or thereabouts...)Registry set. Perhaps next time?
Experience the World through Numismatics...it's more than you can imagine.
Cladking--you have a poetic soul.
Dpoole, Steve27, MDwoods, Lake Sam, Mark and Cosmic--thank you for the welcome.
Clankeye
Here's a set that might interest you: Eliasberg 6-Coin Carver set.
Mark
I saw that auction. My feeling is unless you really, really value the Eliasberg predigree, the starting price is too high. That is of course my opinion, and I have no way of knowing how much the pedigree might mean to others.
In that offering is a 51 PDS set--okay, except the toughest coin--the 51-P--is graded 64, the D and S are both 65. You can find a non-Eliasberg 51 in PCGS 64 for $30 to $60 dollars. The other two coins $150 down.
Two of the other dates (52 and 53-s) are the most commonly available Carvers of all in 65. $75 would be a healthy price for each (non pedigree). The last coin--a 54-- is a medium tough date. Should be able to find one for $150 or under. Usually under.
None of the coins from the scans appear to be particular stand outs. I would say the best thing they have in their favor is the Eliasberg pedigree.
Having said all that, I know of the seller, and he is a collector of fine Carver and Booker T. commems. I have no idea what he must have paid for the coins and I support his right to offer them at whatever price he wants to. It's just not something I will bid on, for the reasons given above.
Clankeye
Larry, had some fantastic coins. The 53-D was not really one of them. Just ordinary.
At this point in my numismatic career, I wouldn't do that again.
Carl
Though I hesitate to post anything to this thread for fear will drive the thread about buying and selling off of the top position, nonetheless.... I agree with your assessment of the Eliasberg Washington Carver coins. They look nice but not earth shattering. I read somewhere recently--perhaps over on the NGC boards--that Eliasberg would request dealers to complete his collections of "common" coins, such as Carver halves or Jefferson nickels, etc. In response, the dealers would simply buy what was around with no cherry picking for quality. The posters suggested that the coins Eliasberg aquired from the Clapp collection were very nice, but that was a testament to Clapp's eye and purchases. The coins Eliasberg acquired on his own were so-so.
Still, an Elisberg pedigree would be a neat pedigree to have. I also think the Shepard pedigree would be cool, but that collection seems to be on the verge of being forgotten. Is that also your opinion?
OK, now back to the discussion of whether coins should be offered for sale on this board.
Mark
<< <i>I also think the Shepard pedigree would be cool, but that collection seems to be on the verge of being forgotten >>
Well, that's an interesting question. I put a Shepard Collection auction catalog up on eBay a while back and was kind of surprised how many bids it got.
Just thinking out loud, I think the pedigree would mostly be used as an extra little bit a marketing to sell the coins. That is not to take away from Larry's set or his accomplishment. But, my feeling is that the coins would bring premiums only in line with the quality of the coins. Now, a lot of Larry's coins were killer, so I think they'd bring out the dough in any holder. But, I think their prices would fly mostly because of the atmosphere that exists for high-end color coins. That more than the pedigree that is on the slab.
Would love to hear a dealers perspective on this.
Commemorative dealers--would you pay any premium for Shepard coins? Or Eliasberg?
Clankeye
<< <i>Commemorative dealers--would you pay any premium for Shepard coins? Or Eliasberg? >>
Carl, I, will not automatically pay a premium, based strictly upon the pedigree, though I know a number of collectors and dealers will.
In the case of Eliasberg - commems were not what his collection was all about, anyway. If I were considering a very rare classic type coin from the Eliasberg collection and if it were accurately graded and appealing, to my eyes, I might pay a premium, though not a large one.
One other comment on the Eliasberg pedigree - when I was still a grader at NGC, I had a minor debate with other graders about putting the Eliasberg pedigree on the grading labels of some 1883 No Cent Liberty nickels, which I believe, had been sold as a roll.
Some graders felt that any coin from that collection was entitled to the pedigree, even if sold as part of a bulk lot, while I, and apparently some other graders, thought the pedigree should apply only to items which were sold individually. In looking at the NGC Census Report, it looks like my side won out, though I thought it had not and am still not certain.
A similar discussion ensued in the case of Eliasberg coins which had been dipped and no longer matched the catalog images and/or descriptions - should they be pedigreed?
Ok, sorry for that aside - getting back to silver commemoratives - many of the Shepard coins are gorgeous and they usually bring prices commensurate with their quality and beauty, pedigree, aside. To me, it would make more sense to pay a premium for a Shepard pedigree than for the Eliasberg one. Likewise, if a classic type coin had a Shepard pedigree with it, that would mean less to me than the Eliasberg one would.
I am definitely, intrigued, at the thought of a well known/widely recognized pedigree that goes back to the time a given coin was minted, whether the coin is from 1800 or 1950. Ditto for any original holders, letters, receipts, envelopes, paperwork, etc. That can be cool stuff! It's just a matter of taking everything into account, when figuring what type of premium to pay.
Again I pause because I worry that I might knock your thread about buying and selling from the top of the threads....but I figure that if I do knock it from the top, it will regain that esteemed position in approximately 1 minute, 23 seconds as another two people post to it...
But, to the Shepard pedigree: You start that many of the Shepard coins were drop dead pretty. Suppose you have two equally pretty commemoratives: one pedigreed to the Shepard collection and the other not. In this case, with everything else equal, would you pay a premium for the Shepard coin?
I concur with your comments about it being nifty to have pedigrees to collections formed in the 1800s. For modern pedigrees, I possess and value coins from:
1) Bass (because I shared a few emails with him)
2) Stokley (because I like his eye for coins)
I also have an Eliasberg colonial but have never felt the urge to pursue any other of his coins. Are there any other pedigrees that others especially value?
Mark
<< <i>But, to the Shepard pedigree: You start that many of the Shepard coins were drop dead pretty. Suppose you have two equally pretty commemoratives: one pedigreed to the Shepard collection and the other not. In this case, with everything else equal, would you pay a premium for the Shepard coin? >>
and
<< <i>Are there any other pedigrees that others especially value? >>
In answer to your first question, I would probably pay a small premium, perhaps 5% to 10%, depending upon the price range of the coin - larger premium on a smaller dollar amount, etc. I realize that this is a personal decision among buyers.
Regarding your second question - a few that quickly come to mind for me are Jimmy Hayes, Norweb, Pittman and Garrett. Give me any pedigree that can be traced directly back to the Mint and I'll be a happy camper.
Clankeye
09/07/2006
enormous premium when finished. That is, if he continues to gather beautiful coins like
the one he showed us. I think also, that anything with the Bards name on it ,will be a true collectable.
Carl , You mentioned obsession, I always thought that was a perfume by Elizabeth Taylor?
Are you into perfume now?
Camelot
<< <i>Are you into perfume now? >>
I'm only into the sweet smell of success, Bear!
Clankeye
That coin looks a tad dirty--sure you don't want to give it a bath?? (
Mark
Camelot
There are obvious reasons why there are lulls with BTW/Carver coins. There are misconceptions about racism and also rumors about these men having been communists, etc. Nothing could be further from the truth. I think also that these coins can prompt serious historical research and great opportunity for knowledge. I have been collecting them for many years as has Clankeye.
Clankeye:
I wish you success with this goal.
Washington Carver, are probably among the handful of people placed on commemorative coins,
that truly deserve the honor for service to the nation.
Camelot
So I guess the pedigree really does matter to some people. To each their own in this hobby. That's why it's fun from day to day. You never really quite know what's going to happen.
Clankeye
It's interesting that Mike Casper bid $1,000 for this set. I wonder if he is planning to move to commemoratives...
I agree with wingedliberty and bear that the BTW and WC commemoratives have fewer collectors than they deserve. I am trying to put together a set of "white" BTW's in 66, but it's not an easy task. I thought after I finish I would move to a set of "white" WCs in 65 because there don't appear to be many "white" WCs in 66...at least I haven't seen any. I find it interesting that these coins, widely believed to be amongst the most common of the common, are actually somewhat tough in the higher grades. I don't know if that is because people haven't submitted the coins because of the perception they are too common or if the mint's lousy quality control at the time actually makes these coins tough in high grade.
Mark
P.S. to Mark Feld: I never realized that a Jimmy Hayes pedigree was up there with a Norweb, Pittman, and Garrett pedigree.
<< <i>I find it interesting that these coins, widely believed to be amongst the most common of the common, are actually somewhat tough in the higher grades. I don't know if that is because people haven't submitted the coins because of the perception they are too common >>
Mark--
Of course you know 52-P's are common as dirt. And there are always tons of them around, running the gamut from junk to high grade. But, after that date I don't think there is much awareness about the Carver series.
The D mint coins are all tough to find nice, very tough in gem. 52-D and 53-D are key coins, with a mintage each of 8,000. The 51 is much tougher than people think in gem. The 53 is tough.
A 52-S is a coin that is way underated IMO. Here is a coin with a mintage of 8,000 that can still be found in 65 for under $100. If you're looking.
Getting into 66-67, again with the exception of the 52-P, these coins are very scarce. And I don't think the idea that nobody thinks they are worth submitting holds water. They are worth plenty enough to submit. Watch an auction where a better date Carver in 66 comes up and Wow! there's action.
I will state this because I have seen the reality of it played out in the market--PCGS graded Carvers bring more than NGC. I will make the exception of the "monster" coin. It can't be just because of the Registry--I'm in the Registry now, and heck, I'm in the top ten with three coins... 64's. So the Registry doesn't cause that. I remember a time in the early ninties when there were almost no Carvers graded higher than 65 out there. And then came a large batch at NGC and all of a sudden there were a few hundred more. Also, a lot of those coins were not particularly eye appealing that I saw. Well... I'm rambling.
Mark, I think that what you are doing is great. I wish you good luck with your search. I, of course, believe these coins are a lot more attractive than people give them credit for, and are very interesting pieces of American History. When you have a whole set of them sitting on your desk, and the luster is glowing... it's a good thing.
Someday maybe more people will appreciate them. I know of a few die-hard fans. Monsterman for instance--he loves them. At any rate, I haven't been able to shake my jones for them for almost 14 years. Strange.
Clankeye
<< <i>Any specialists out there? For the auction of the Eliasberg pieces, what is the realistic value of the six coins and the auction catalogues? >>
Docday--I'm not the specialist--but I will offer this: if the coins were not pedigree coins I would bid between $550 and $600 for them.
The Eliasberg pedigree obviously has put them into a total gray area of pricing. The same with the auction catalogs (which I originally did not notice where part of the lot).
I too would love to hear how much someone thinks the catalogs are worth by themselves.
Clankeye
I take exception to your statment "Mark, I think that what you are doing is great." I think the proper statement is that "what WE are doing is great" because we are both collecting (similar) coins that we enjoy a lot. I think the coins are similar because they honor great Americans, were issued by the same group (or, perhaps more accurately, the same person), and seem to be largely overlooked by most collectors..
I think I settled upon the BTWs rather than the WCs largely from chance, though there do appear to be more "white" BTWs than "white" WCs. Given that I prefer white coins (which is truly an odd thing to be saying about BTWs and WCs!), I guess the odds did favor me collecting BTWs first. Clankeye, is my assessment, that there are more "white" BTWs than WCs, in line with your opinion?
I totally agree with your comment that high-grade WCs and BTWs are worth getting slabbed. And your comment about the fight that breaks out over WCs is the same for nice BTWs. This January B&M had a MS66 BTW that I needed with a list price of circa $500 or so. The photograph of the coin made the coin look truly ugly but I saw the coin in person at the FUN show and I thought it was actually very pretty. I chased that sucker up to about $1,200 (=$1,400 with the premium) before I wound up being the underbidder. And I am still unhappy that I didn't go higher!
Well, once again we bump the selling and buying thread from the top of the list. To think that we have all these replies and haven't once called each other a name...though, of course, Clankeye is a moron for collecting WCs rather than BTWs...
Mark
<< <i>Clankeye, is my assessment, that there are more "white" BTWs than WCs, in line with your opinion? >>
Mark--absolutely. In the early 90's when I put together my first set of toned Carvers, I was also working on a set of BTW's. I finally just didn't have the patience because I couldn't find really nice dramatically toned BTW's in certain dates. I did complete a set in 65, but most all of the coins were nice, white, glowing coins.
(Aside. At one point I found two coins--1950-D & 50-S PCGS65 that had the most incredible, vibrant firey rim toning I have ever seen on a pair of Booker T's. One coin-- the toning was gold, the other predominantly green. I know you like white, but these coins would have knocked you out. I sold them... two of the only coins I have ever owned to this day that I regret selling. I still think about them. And know that I won't see their like again.
The 46 BTW's are like the 52-P Carver to me. It takes a lot to get me excited about one. I owned a lot of matching toned 46 BTW sets in my day. They are plentiful with color. But, the other dates--I totally concur, they are very hard to come by. So I guess that is good for you, since you prefer the white coins anyway.
Since we are still talking about Carvers and BTW's (and I am loving it by the way) I would like to further define why I am starting a registry set and what my intentions are. My goal--the challenge--that I percieve here, is that I want to put together a set of Carvers that will rival any higher graded coins for eye appeal. It may take a while to complete. But, I'm going to wait for the right coins and hopefully put together a set in 64 and 65 that on the basic Hearbeat Scale holds it's own no matter what the plastic says.
And yes, Mark, I think it only appropriate that we now turn this thread into a flame war between those of us who prefer Carvers to BTW's.
Do you ever collect any of the packaging and memorabilia that is sometimes available for the Bookers? I think that stuff is cool.
Clankeye
Congratulations, needless to say if you chose Carver's that is what you truly love to do at this time, and you'll likely have fun completing a set. You need only choose a series you truly love - just following other key series would be useless unless of course you suddenly desire mercury dimes and of course if so we'll give you a coveted seat on the merc exchange plus privileges like no need for hand signals when passing for a free ride on the catapult
Good luck, and have fun !!!
Marc
I don't know why, but I have never been attracted to BTW memorabilia. I recall seeing for sale some sort of cardboard container with a bunch (20? 40?) of BTWs in it. I believe the deal was that this could be set up in a store so that customers could buy BTWs when they were in the store. I forget where I sale this item for sale. Are there similar memorabilia for WC's?
Marc:
I concur that Clankeye MUST not move to Mercs. There are already too many people collecting Mercs. If he tires of WC's, let him move big bald buys and/or Frankies!
Mark
Did you see the Eliasberg coins closed at over $1600! That's only a thousand more than I was willing to go. Wow.
Makes me wonder what the catalogs are worth.
I have seen almost zero memorabila related to Wash/Carver coins.
Carl
Yeah, I saw the price in wonderment... I have the non-gold Eliasberg catalogs. I sure hope they were $1,000 of the price!!
Mark
K S
Clankeye
Mark