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I feel bad for set collectors

Not to put a dark cloud over the graded card industry, but I believe we are about to hit a stalemate. Common cards from the 60's and later (with the exception of a few sets) are not worth grading anymore. I have submitted a couple thousand commons from 1974-1980 over the last year or two but I'm pretty sure that I am done with that era now. Lately I've been grading 1975 Topps and reselling them but cards are in the tanker right now. I've actually graded more than 1% of all the 1975 Topps myself. I have about 300 more 1975 that I am getting ready to send in but I have decided to weed them out for obvious 8's so I am down to 150 that have a shot at 9's. I was paying $500-$600 per mint/nm 1975 Topps set but I won't do that anymore. Graded commons from a lot of those years are about to come to a screetching halt because resell prices are lower than grading fees, even for PSA 9's in a lot of 70's sets! Take a look at this. It's all supply and demand I know and no one person can affect it either way but it will be interesting to see how dedicated collector's are to complete their sets when the supply has dried up. Guys like DSL and Shoeless are eventually going to realized that they are losing money on grading commons. Will collector's pay what it takes to get a card they need or leave their set at 20% for years? This next year will weed out the men from the boys. With 102 people making the 1975 Topps set, a pop 20 common barely gets grading fees. What's up with that? I think many people aren't very serious about making their sets. If commons do come to a dead halt though, prices will eventually come back up as supply dries up and dealers will start to resubmit again, but that may be a 2 or 3 year cycle. I'm curious to know how many of you 70's guys will pay whatever it takes to complete your set if supply dries up or will you be happy at 50% complete for months and months. Or will you be happy submitting cards yourself at $6 each and when they come back a PSA 9, they are worth $3 each. Any opinions?

Comments

  • true, good point you make. who could argue?imageimage
  • nortynorty Posts: 201
    Wabbittwax:

    There is bountiful amounts of high grade raw 70's and 80's material out there. Set builders from the years you mentioned can still buy sets or partial sets/groups of commons cheaply enough to submit their own cards for grading. They don't have to buy them already graded. As you said, the law of supply (lots of raw high grade) exceeds the demand (for cards in graded form).
    Joe Tauriello
    Setbuilders Sports Cards
    Ebay: set-builders & set-builders2
  • RobERobE Posts: 1,160 ✭✭
    Steve,great points and interesting read too.Keep in mind this market is a volitale one to say the very least.You've said yourself that new people everyday are discovering tyhe registry and that has held true.As well,there are lots of buying opps in the summer at this time,it's a buyers market and occasionally there are some premiums paid but not as much as other times throughout the year.


    You know,I'm no genius or critic but your topic would be much easier to read if ya made an attempt at paragraphs,forced myself to read as it is interesting what you bring up but it made my eyes hurt.
  • WabittwaxWabittwax Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭
    Yeah, I know there's a ton of raw out there, but the question is whether most collector's will shell out $600 on a submission of 100 cards knowing that they are only worth $300-$400 when they come back? And that's not including the prices they paid for the raw to begin with. If they are making a 660 card set, are most people willing to go in the hole $1000-$2000 to build it?
  • VarghaVargha Posts: 2,392 ✭✭
    Steve -- It's awfully hard to predict where the market will go. The doomsday forecasts are usually wrong as are the pie in the sky analyses. The truth usually lies somewhere in between.

    My belief is that submitting 72 Topps or newer to get 9's is a gambler's game in which only the strong and skilled prosper. But human nature tells me that people will believe that they can beat the odds. Buying unopened wax or submitting raw cards from the 70's, needing to get alot of 9's or better is a crapshoot. It's not much different than the people who buy new wax, hoping to get a limited numbered card or special insert. Yet, vintage collectors have been predicting the complete and utter ruin of that market for two decades now. It's still here, and the riverboat mentality of the raw submitter isn't going away any time soon either.
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,066 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Don't forget if you add the shipping & handling costs to the auction price, most do exceed the cost of grading. But I agree that certainly anything newer than 1976 will struggle to make back the cost of grading fees, sometimes even if they are 9s.
  • WabittwaxWabittwax Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭
    I have to disagree. I take myself for example. I submit cards almost 100% for the profitability of it, which is the ONLY reason that dealers do. Collector's who don't care about profit will always submit, and that's good, but with 6200+ sets on the registry, many will not be completed without dealer submissions. In the last 2 years I have cracked vending cases, vending boxes, rack boxes and packs, wax, etc..., but I really don't do that anymore. I believe there are many dealers like me. I'm not really trying to predict where the market will go, I'm stating where the market is right now. I'm not saying that the sky is falling, the sky has already fell on some stuff. The whole card market is not bad, just a certain niche of the market (commons) which happens to be a necessity for set builders. I see your point though that people are willing to throw money away like modern pack openers. As for the skilled will prosper, I consider myself as good as anybody at submitting 70's stuff and knowing what PSA is looking for and I really don't see any prosperity in it with the exception of hitting a big rookie card 9 or 10 occasionally.

    I seem to have a real problem with run on sentences. lol.
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭
    Way too much supply thanks to the specials. The big time submitters made a boat-load of money in the beginning...but collectors are finally starting to realize that patience is a valuable tool and many of the guys who built sets last year at "any cost" realize that the set could of been built a fraction of the cost today thanks to higher pops.

    John
  • FBFB Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    Agreed that there is too much supply currently out there and thats why the prices have fallen. Will it get any better when their are 202 people working on the 75 set or 505? Probably... But, will there STILL be too much supply to raise prices? Possibly...

    Since David mentioned 72 - I'll continue with that set...

    The PSA 8 market has fallen through the floor. I've had PSA 8's that didn't bring the $8.00 minimum bid that I was asking over the last few months. Most PSA 9's have been selling for $24.99 because thats where most of us have set the starting price (artificially high? Maybe... but I'll hold on to it rather than take less and most other dealers/collectors are doing the same). Does the market change over time? ABSOLUTELY!

    As of a month ago, a new 72 collector joined the fray and decided to win everything that he went after. Consequently, the prices on some cards that would be gone for $40 - 3 months ago jumped to $140.00. In response to those bids, some others have been bidding a little bit higher. And as more dealers see the higher prices being paid, they've been submitting more 72's and posting them on eBay. (the number of 9's that have been on eBay last last few months had dropped dramatically as prices dropped).

    Couple these thoughts with the fact that the "self-submitters" on these boards are seeing that its getting much tougher to find high quality raw cards (50's darn near impossible, 60's more work for fewer cards, 70's still a boatload out there - but a smaller boatload than last year) then we're going to see a time when prices will move back up... and more collectors will come on board... Don't forget - as of Sept 1, you must be a Gold or Platinum member to submit. That might thin the herd a little.

    The thing that I think that we REALLy need is for companies like PSA and Superior to turn some of their advertising from the collecting crowd already on board - to the potential customers who have no idea about the market, grading and the baseball, football, basketball, hockey and non-sports cards from their youth.

    Just my 2 cents...
    Frank Bakka
    Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
    Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!

    lynnfrank@earthlink.net
    outerbankyank on eBay!
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,066 ✭✭✭✭✭


    << <i>In the last 2 years I have cracked vending cases, vending boxes, rack boxes and packs, wax, etc..., but I really don't do that anymore.

    << <i>

    There-in lies part of the problem. If you are sourcing your raw cards from unopened, the equation will continue to tilt against you over time. Although there's still tons of wax out there from the mid-70s onward, the more you open, the less there is. This results in more high grade raw vintage and less unopened. The prices of the raw cards then get reduced due to the greater availability and the prices of unopened increases due to reduced supply.
  • mikeschmidtmikeschmidt Posts: 5,756 ✭✭✭
    I can say without hesitation that Mike Schmidt cards have dropped precipitously in value in the PSA 9 grade over the past four to five years.

    There are a handful of exceptions, where PSA 9's are still proven to be rare and difficult to find.

    However -- the money seems to be in the PSA 10's -- and I have yet to meet anyone who can get 10s with any consistency. The difference between 10s and 9s is often so subtle (Except for when it is something obvious like a dot or centering) -- that I know of no submitter who routinely is banking on the 10s to put them over the top...
    I am actively buying MIKE SCHMIDT gem mint baseball cards. Also looking for any 19th century cabinets of Philadephia Nationals. Please PM with additional details.
  • dudedude Posts: 1,454 ✭✭
    Interesting discussion. I had a long talk with several collectors and dealers about this very subject at the National.

    First, regarding the title of the thread, I too would feel bad for set collectors if they bought graded commons from the '70s for investment from 2000-2002. This glut of cards wasn't a shock to me. Several years ago in the early days of this Message Board we talked about "the Mickey Mantle theory of card population". The theory is that if you look at any year that Mantle was graded you would see that an enormous amount of his cards were graded compared to other players, especially commons in that same series or set. The conclusion was that there are as many commons floating around, but the vast majority haven't been graded yet. So the numbers are starting to catch up and there's clearly not the same demand for commons as Mantle cards. This is true for '70's cards if you look at Pete Rose, Johnny Bench, Mike Schmidt, et al.

    But if you are buying for the fun and pleasure of collecting, then this is actually great news. It's a buyer's market. Dealers will stop submitting cards for grading when it doesn't become profitable and then more raw cards are going to showing up at dealer's tables at shows. Maybe it will be 1998 all over again in the very near future.

    The market is dictated by supply and demand. The supply seems plentiful in most '70s issues and even '68 Topps has gotten really soft lately and same is true with a lot of PSA 8 commons with higher population from any of the '60's issues. My bigger concern about the hobby (and this was also shared with the other people I had that discussion at the National with) is that very few new collectors are joining the hobby. Beyond the stigma that it's a hobby for nerds and geeks, the hobby industry itself doesn't market itself that well into the mainstream. The corporations that make money off of this hobby need to think beyond the trade magazines and conventions and some how convince the nation and the world for that matter, that this is a great hobby. Until that happens, it will be pretty much business as usual.
  • boggs301012boggs301012 Posts: 1,135 ✭✭
    I agree with MS

    Boggs cards are down way down. 8's are worthless except Rookies. 9's will fetch under 10.00 and I can pick up 10's very cheap. I bought an PSA 10 Leaf 1990 for under 20.00 can remember off hand. A year ago one sold for 150.00 I think it it at it all time low. I am buying when I can. I was shut out on the 1984 DK PSA 10 ebay was down when it ended at 77.00. It will pick up again soon next year maybe. When I finish my basic set I am done except for upgrades. With the market down I will try to find something I enjoy and is a bargain so if I ever sell I wont get hosed to bad.


    James
    x
  • qualitycardsqualitycards Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭
    Imagine what the value would be for 1970's & 80's graded commons if PSA lowered the grading fees to make it "worthwhile" for the submitters, there would be no doubt a huge glut in un-desirable cards. So the best thing would be is to sit tight and wait for the current eBay offerings of such to find a home and perhaps more collectors will have a demand in these cards and sets and the supply will dwindle and prices will go up...jay
  • FBFB Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    Dan,
    Its funny that you should mention

    << <i>the hobby industry itself doesn't market itself that well into the mainstream. >>

    I had a whole paragraph in my previous post that dealt with the same issue - then decided to delete it before I submitted the reply.

    I think that issue is a double edged sword. As a collector, I'd like to complete my sets and see the value go up. But, if more people get involved in the hobby, the value (and cost) will go up before I complete!

    SO, I decided to let that sleeping dog lie.

    But, yes... all marketing is targeted at those of us that are already involved. There are probably a lot more "nerds and geeks" that would be happy to get on board if they knew about the changes that the hobby has seen over the last decade or two.
    Frank Bakka
    Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
    Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!

    lynnfrank@earthlink.net
    outerbankyank on eBay!
  • Frank and Dan - Ditto to chasing those that have long since forgotten our hobby or could easily be drawn in cold with the right type of promotion.
    In that 30-55 demographic there are a lot of people still on the sidelines from the late 80's-Early 90's hobby crash. They are so far back on the sidelines that they don't even know that vintage has made a turnaround with grading, the registry, and set building. This something that has been enjoyed through the ages and still has lots of revitalization rooom to explore.
    The real future is in our youth. PSA can help, even dealers who currently enjoy the benefits of the set building trend can pitch the comradery and the technology angles to convert the kids. PSA websites interactive nature is a sure winner with any computer geek and can be much better moving forward.
    I have chased this post a little off topic but you guys have it right. Demand is the key. Grow the demand.
    RayB69Topps
    Never met a Vintage card I didn't like!
  • My conclusion to an unscientific study of eBay results revealed that -- with low-pop exceptions of course -- generally the prices that sellers are getting for PSA 8 commons from about 1970 to the present are not appreciably higher than their grading cost at best, and in many cases are drawing less than that, if they draw a bid at all. The 1960's improve yet are weak in some years, most notably 1968. Most PSA 8 commons from 1963 and before do well.

    Personally, I don't get a card graded (that I intend to sell) unless it's (1) a card with an anticipated grade that SMR's for at least $50, or (2) a very, very low-pop common from the 1960's and earlier.

    I think we've definitely reached a saturation point for 1970's and later, and in the 1960's to some extent as well. I don't see a recovery (demand overwhelming supply) any time in the foreseeable future ..... many, many years.

    Skycap

    (I originally posted this on another thread by mistake)
  • DhjacksDhjacks Posts: 343 ✭✭
    Just FYI, I got some great deals on '70s basketball commons and minor stars in psa 8 and 9 last week while y'all were in Atlantic City.
    There was noticeably more competition in yesterday's auctions.
    Working on 1969 through 1975 Basketball.
  • TipemTipem Posts: 881


    I agree that the market is way down for 60's and 70 cards and I don't see prices rising anytime soon.However with 50's cards,prices seem to be holding their own.It may be that since I am collecting 56's,which seemingly are among the most popular set of the 50's,prices are still fairly strong.I would expect to see prices stay reasonably strong for most of the of the less collected sets,such as the early Bowman and Topps sets.I think that the reason late 40's and most 50's sets will stay strong is that there are not as many collectors building those sets due to collectors age,amount of investment needed for completion of set, and familiarity of those players with collectors.

    Dude makes a good point in that there certainly are not a glut of new collectors joining our ranks.After all,the backbone of this hobby as far as new collectors is concerned will always be kids.I attribute this almost exclusively to the greed of major card companies and their shortsightedness in mass production.Then,there is the problem of being able to put a set together without spending a small fortune due to the fact that even distribution of cards is a joke.That,coupled with the price of a pack of cards that in most cases kids cannot afford makes this hobby almost a dinosaur.

    While the "chase"cards certainly did wonders for card companies bottom line,they ultimately will be the demise(or already have been)of card collecting as we know it. image

    Does anybody else long for the days when you could sit down and open a couple of wax boxes and come real close to putting together a complete set,then buying a few packs in search of those remaining elusive cards?image

    Vic

    Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
  • acowaacowa Posts: 945 ✭✭
    Vic,

    <I think that the reason late 40's and most 50's sets will stay strong is that there are not as many collectors building those sets due to collectors age,amount of investment needed for completion of set, and familiarity of those players with collectors.>

    Logically, your argument would be used as to why the market would be weaker...not stronger. What am i mising?


    Regards,



    Alan
  • Wabbittwax,
    Absolutely great thread you've started.

    Gemint, FB, you guys make some points that are not so obvious and should be taken seriously by PSA and collectors alike.

    I, for one, am more aggressive with my set than ever right now. Controlling my ego is most important these days. There is no need to "feel sorry for the set builder" in these times. If the set builder is doing it for love of the set/memories/childhood or whatever reason makes him warm and fuzzy...There are some rules the 70's set builder NEEDS to follow to avoid a money-pit...here's a couple...

    Buy what pleases you. Don't chase cert #'s if you can help it, and whenever possible submit your own stuff. Try to buy the very best of the best regardless of the grade. There's a PSA 10 on eBay right now of a card that I already have in a "virtually perfect" PSA 9. I contacted the seller and found ...Quote: "I wouldn't have graded this a 10. It's off-white, a bit off-center with a very questionable corner...it's fuzzy...it won't make your set, Phil"... Here I was ready to go nuts for a card I already had because my ego got going. This self control (I struggle with it) will allow me to continue upgrading my cards over and over and finish with some scary cards. The best of the best will never go out of style and always command a premium. How big a premium will go in cycles. I DO think the cert buyer is in for a rude awakening when the realization hits people...there are some grotesquely overgraded 9's and 10's from the 70's...don't think this hasn't hurt eBay prices, either--it has...but that's another thread. I plan to be doing my set for years. It will be the only graded set I'll ever do (grading is too inconsistent and subjective for my tastes) and I still look at my cards nightly. How many set-builders rotate their cards in the display case to keep the eye fresh? Don't feel sorry for me as a set-builder, this is the most fun I've had in collecting. I enjoy the heck out of my cards. Try to buy the best of the best. If the quality is truly there the set sells itself...PSA or no PSA...wax, how's that for a run-on???
    dgf

    P.S. I will still pay $6 each and shipping both ways for your raw 77 commons...email me if you've got any. Have you got a vending box you want to break for the stars but don't know what to do with those "worthless" commons...I'm your man!!! Break the box, pull the Ryan, Dawson, Brett, Munson, etc. and ship me the rest. I'll take what I can use that you don't want and pay you $6 per card and round-trip shipping. One man's trash is another man's treasure...




  • Alan,

    I think there are proportionally more late 1940's through 1950's collectors chasing their target graded card supply than later-year collectors chasing their target graded card supply. That's why the value of late 1940's and 1950's cards has held up.

    Skycap
  • BasiloneBasilone Posts: 2,492 ✭✭
    This set builder made a very nice profit selling off his 1965 PSA 8 cards in the past month. Thanks to addition of 2-3 new buyers to the mix.

    John image
  • TipemTipem Posts: 881
    Alan,

    There are just enough collectors within this market to keep prices up and the availability of high grade material is certainly limited.While I don't think that the supply of high grade cards is drying up entirely,there was not anything that I found at the national that was acceptable for grading in a PSA 8 or better.Although I am not as familiar with the major dealers as some and that may have been a factor in my lack of results. It seems that the dealers are all submitting anything that would presumably grade that high.I didn't find many dealers that had much at PSA being graded.I would say(just a guess) that the amount of raw cards was probably greater at this national than at nationals of the last couple of years.I also didn't find much in the way of graded (PSA 8 or higher) cards in the 56 set at all.As a matter of fact,in that high of a grade,there seemed to be a significantly smaller % of cards altogether for most of the 50's.

    Of course,it could be that my argument is A$$ backwards. image

    Vic
    Please be kind to me. Even though I'm now a former postal employee, I'm still capable of snapping at any time.
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,066 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I've never bought into the Mickey Mantle theory. My theory is that, although most commons are much more plentiful in high grade than their current populations, they will not necessarily reach the populations of the top star cards if everyone were to grade out their NM/MT+ raw cards. The reason I believe this is that dealers have been taking better care of the superstar cards for more than 20 years now where the commons were always stuffed into binders where collectors could shuffle through them, remove them and jam them back into the pockets. I remember buying high grade 60's star cards at a local flea market around 1981 and the seller had those cards in protective holders. But hardly anyone bothered to protect the "worthless" commons.
  • jaxxrjaxxr Posts: 1,258 ✭✭
    Gemint,

    I agree with your point very much, however not all cards were saved by dealers....

    When I was a young punk, my collector buddies and I constantly displayed, handled, and pretty much "wore-out" various superstar player cards. Some of us even cleverly defaced enemy or rival teams' superstar cards. Those no-name common cards were basically left alone once obtained for our sets. Condition was hardly a concern, so why play with the commons ?? Of course since the publicity in the early 80s, kids know about condition and value.

    I have always felt once a set-builder gets his particular card, maybe a second or duplicate one, he is almost certain to NOT bid on any additional copies in the same grade/condition. Also some set collectors are not looking to get every single card in graded shape. They may desire getting the keys and perhaps a few commons in slabs, but can enjoy the other 80-90% of the set in nice raw form. This makes for a very mixed or unstable market for commons.

    The Set Registry is still quite new by hobby standards, while not the only reason to collect graded commons, it is a strong force. More publicity and promotion should increase interest. New collectors or converts from other venues like different graders or raw cards will be needed to keep demand up.
    image
    This aint no party,... this aint no disco,.. this aint no fooling around.
  • pcpc Posts: 743
    bicycle spokes notwithstanding i recall it was a rarity
    to pull stars in the 60s and most cards were commons
    and leaders,team cards and checklists.in boxes i swear
    there were more checklists than any other duplicate,next
    to of course dick schofield.so as Dan the Dude has brought
    to our attention if i.e.,2000 mantles are submitted in a year
    and 10 joe jays (assuming same series) then there should be
    a ridiculous amount of ungraded commons out there-somehwere.
    true many of us flipped 'em but there was oneheckuva ratio
    of "worthless" cards in all those packs.had we known to
    never open them,now that would be something.
    Money is your ticket to freedom.
  • RG58RG58 Posts: 119
    1970 + cards are too abundant for the number of serious collectors who really want to put the sets together completely. Many collectors with significant money to spend are more interested in the pre 1960 vintage stuff.

    I am new to the board. I'm working on a PSA graded 1958 topps set (started about 8 months ago) I expect it will take about 5 years to complete the set-- I collect for the fun and not as an investment, although like everyone I like to know my money is being put into something that will at least hold its value.

    Prices for 1958 topps have increased 20% (for high pop cards)- to the sky's the limit (for low pop cards) in the past year.

    1958 topps PSA 8 Marshall # 441: $172 (ebay)- pop of 14 in "8"
    1958 topps PSA 8 Turley AS: $125 (ebay) pop of 27 in "8"
    1958 topps PSA 8 E Johnson (WN): $2000+ pop of ?1 at the time, now up to 3!

    I think you have to put the year into perspective... supply and demand... too many high grade 1970s cards, not enough collectors building high grade sets.

    1950s--- not enough high grade stuff for the number of set builders.

    I personally believe that there is relatively little raw stuff from the 50s in PSA 8 or higher still out there but lots of PSA 8 from the 1970s.



  • RG58,

    It depends on how nice you want 'em. I did '57s in 7-8 with tremendous ease compared to building 70's sets in legitimate mint condition. I would agree that building 70's sets in NM or even NM/MT isn't too taxing, but high-grade for 70's means 9's or better. If you're not a cert. buyer---and even if you are-- that's harder than you think. I've done 50's and 70's and they're pretty comparable...depending on how nice you gotta have 'em. Also, and this may hurt, there are more people with increasing discretionary income in the 30-something crowd who have more warm fuzzies for Schmidt and Brett than Ed Mathews. The hobby won't feel this for a few years but it's coming. These collectors will chase childhood and may fall out of love with players they never actually saw. Willie, Mickey and the Duke were the greatest and will always have a following, but so will Schmidt, Brett and Yount. It's even more obvious with commons...it's amazing when I talk to guys doing 50's and 60's sets, full of players from prior to their birth, hearing them mispronounce the names...70's cards are still a few years away from a mature following, but they ARE coming...and the supply of TRUE quality is not as limitless as you think...
    dgf
  • WabittwaxWabittwax Posts: 1,984 ✭✭✭
    That's a good point. I've also wondered about that for late 1980's cards. I was 12 in 1987 when I started collecting and there are literally 30 million other people like me who was young in the high production 80's era. As people my age get older and have more disposable income, they might get back in to cards that remind them of their childhood. I recently bought a sealed 1987 Tiffany set for my set on the registry. As I opened it, it really took me back 15 years. That feeling alone was worth the money I spent on it. I think in that aspect, the registry has a good future because there is a huge amount of the population who relate to late 80's cards. That glut of collector's (if they are coming) should help the entire card market for every set. If that is true, CU might be a decent long term stock to own. If 1988 Topps ever get really hot for grading (that may be a stretch), PSA will have about 50 million new cards to grade. I think I'm getting way too optimistic now, I need to settle down, lol.
  • calleochocalleocho Posts: 1,569 ✭✭
    the simple sheer amount of cards not graded from the 70's will make it very tough for anyone w/ a complete set from that era to see an increase in the worth of their sets ..even w/ a new influx of weatlthy collectors.

    sentimental value does add some extra worth to a card ..but scarcity is what makes it go up steadily over time.

    my guess would be that most pre war collectors never saw any of those players play.

    for every 10 new members that joins the 70's gang there will be 1000's of new cards graded psa 8 or better.

    for every 1 collector that joins the 50s gang ...there might only be so many cards to go around.

    i believe that as a regular collector gets more advanced in the hobby ...two things happen

    1) he begins to specialize in a particular area ( a set, a team, obscure sets, etc) and begins to narrow his collection to the highest grade possible

    2) he starts focusing in older, more challenging and nostalgic sets (50's and pre war)

    "Women should be obscene and not heard. "
    Groucho Marx
  • I agree that the hobby needs to attract new collectors, but it is just not a marketing problem. At the risk of offending some since I am a newbie, I would like to focus on another aspect of growing the card collector market - service. At the National last weekend I was very disappointed to see many dealers folding up their tents very early - an hour before closing. The public paid good money to get in this show and the dealers have an obligation to stay open until the posted closing time. I realize that it is tough to stand on your feet all day and everyone is anxious to get to the bar, to the tables, to dinner or just back to their rooms, but service to the paying public should override these concerns. Body bags at 6:30 do not help the industry.
  • FBFB Posts: 1,684 ✭✭
    michael,

    Believe me... you don't have to be a newbie to offend around here! image Welcome to the boards!

    I agree with your statements. Service is definitely a key, but its generally a key to keeping the existing customers satisfied than bringing new ones on board. I too was a little ticked that some of the dealers that I was looking to visit were either closed when I arrived during my "VIP hour" or closed before the show shut down for the day.

    At the PSA Registry luncheon, Joe Orlando had a Q & A session. During it, I asked him a question about PSA's operations... I felt that PSA would go a long way towards quieting some grumbling on the boards if they could try to ensure that cards were graded "first in, first out" within each service level. Right now, you can have a vintage common invoice arrive on Sept 1 and get graded by Sept 29th, while another vintage common arrives on Sept 15th and be completed on Sept 22. This isn't a HUGE problem, but it is a source of annoyance, especially if its your invoice that sits around for a month while others come and go.
    Frank Bakka
    Sets - 1970, 1971 and 1972
    Always looking for 1972 O-PEE-CHEE Baseball in PSA 9 or 10!

    lynnfrank@earthlink.net
    outerbankyank on eBay!
  • Calleocho,
    Did you read my post? 8's are pretty simple from the 70's...so are 7's from the 50's and 60's...the point is this...

    There are not that many legitimate--key word, here-- MINT cards from the 70's. The 8 population from the 50's and certainly the 60's will be comparable to the 9-10 poulation of the 70's. Pair this with the fact that PSA is rather inconsistent with their 9's and 10's from the 70's (generous), it will make a super-sharp, centered, clean, focused, pack-fresh, 70's set look pretty good. Also...sad to say...life expectancy starts to play a role here as well. Pre-war guys will always be there, but I believe that number isn't going to grow significantly any time soon if you get my drift.
    dgf

    P.S. Have you taken a good look at any 70's vending recently...you may be enlightened by the horrors that lurk within.
  • mcastaldimcastaldi Posts: 1,130 ✭✭
    Michael> I agree that dealers should be open until close, but to a large degree it's not up to them. In many cases, it's dicatated by the facility and this is the scenario
    -- Show closes to traffic at 6pm
    -- Dealers mus be out of the hall at 6:30
    -- Most dealers require an hour to 90 minutes to get their items secured for leaving them in the hall overnight
    -- That means dealers must start packing up 30-60 minutes before the end of the show.

    Arriving in the morning is a similar situation. Dealers can't start unpacking until they're allowed to their table.

    That said, I agree that I've seen way too many dealers start packing up at 3pm or something - and seen tables totally locked up until 10 or 11am.

    Mike
    So full of action, my name should be a verb.
  • qualitycardsqualitycards Posts: 2,811 ✭✭✭
    As a dealer that occasionally sets up at shows MCASTALDI is correct, sometimes the facility/show promoter dictates exact policy. But I too have seen dealers pack up hours before a show ends, or in some cases they just don't show up on Sunday at all. Without realizing that their absense could miss out on a great transaction, be it selling or buying. The strong popular shows will not put up w/ dealers doing that, promoter Bob Schmiere of Fort Washington won't, and I imagine if at the National if a seller skipped out he would lose his seniority ranking for the next years table selection. Unless of course its a situation like Mark Murphy whose table was empty at the National...jay
  • gemintgemint Posts: 6,066 ✭✭✭✭✭
    I thought Murphy was going to be replentishing his inventory at the National (i.e., buying). I'm surprised he skipped it.
  • packCollectorpackCollector Posts: 2,786 ✭✭✭
    I missed the national and did not see his empty table. His website is back up and he has a few things for sale. mostly the easier and more common stuff. not 1 gai graded pack is listed on his site
  • mcastaldimcastaldi Posts: 1,130 ✭✭
    John> One thing I've learned from a dealer friend of mine. . .a dealer doesn't necessarily have to set up to have a great show. If he works his network of dealers, he can conduct his most important transactions without setting up. Mark's table may have been empty, but I'd have been really surprised if he wasn't working the floor, at least a bit.

    Mike
    So full of action, my name should be a verb.
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