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Challenge To Lincoln Memorial MS Dealers/Sellers
redcents
Posts: 735
To all of you dealers that promote the heck out of these things, how about creating a REAL market for them. Publish the prices you are actually willing to pay for sight-unseen top pop PCGS MS Lincoln Memorials. If not for specific dates than perhaps for a given pop - e.g. if pop 10/0 $??? (or $?? ! 
).
Just genuinely trying to eliminate much of the uncertainty and illiquidity in this "market". I feel that if there were known "bids" from established sellers - that come up with those bids from real past sales & current want list experience then all buyers can benefit. If someone knows dealer A is bidding $250 for a coin they might not feel like they may be paying too much at a $300 price or so. If they have no idea what anyone is willing to pay, perhaps they may only bid $200 - e.g. The more transparent and free the pricing info the MORE the market will flourish & gain collector/investor confidence. How can it possibly be a bad thing (for potential buyers & sellers) for the people that REGULARLY buy/make & sell these things to be on record as to what they would be a willing buyer at - thereby adding some liquiduity and stability into the "market"?
). Just genuinely trying to eliminate much of the uncertainty and illiquidity in this "market". I feel that if there were known "bids" from established sellers - that come up with those bids from real past sales & current want list experience then all buyers can benefit. If someone knows dealer A is bidding $250 for a coin they might not feel like they may be paying too much at a $300 price or so. If they have no idea what anyone is willing to pay, perhaps they may only bid $200 - e.g. The more transparent and free the pricing info the MORE the market will flourish & gain collector/investor confidence. How can it possibly be a bad thing (for potential buyers & sellers) for the people that REGULARLY buy/make & sell these things to be on record as to what they would be a willing buyer at - thereby adding some liquiduity and stability into the "market"?
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Comments
I don't think it is realistic to expect a dealer to publish and continually update a complete bid sheet for all Lincolns in all grades. Most Lincoln dealers will provide a bid upon request.
Greg
If that was your business (selling Lincolns) I'd expect having a buying price list would be essential. Also, MOST dealers WILL NOT even quote you a buy price. Have you ever tried to sell them at a coin show? MOST say "it's not for me" or "I have no buyers for that", etc. Over the phone or via e-mail most say the same with the added bonus of "I'd really have to see it first". I submit that if an experiment were put in place that asked every seller with a current listing of Lincoln Memorials - on eBay e.g. - the results would be as I've stated. I respect your opinion Greg but I speak from first hand experience - of course the dealers at the show just may not have liked the way I looked or - for them & for those I may have called in the past - my New York accent
Red Cents, I know of no one making a 2-way market in pop-top
Lincoln Memorial cents. This "market" is just too recent to
establish concrete prices. The PCGS registry set program is the
obvious reason that pop-top Memorial cents bring the prices seen
on E-Bay. These coins weren't even considered for slabbing just
a short time ago.
Opportunity arose when certain-minded individuals noticed prices
realized for these coins on E-Bay & Teletrade. I don't deny that
I took advantage of this opportunity to find these coins and get
the right grade from PCGS. In a free market I was just filling
a "need." Honestly, I've been amazed (and continue so) at the
prices realized for pop-top "pocket change" and I confess I have
to be seller at these prices WHILE THEY LAST.
I use E-Bay as my method of selling (no reserve prices) and "let the
chips fall where they may." Two or more willing buyers are all that
is needed for an apparent not-of-this-world price to be realized.
I don't know their motivations other than inclusion in a PCGS
registry set.
I'd rather take my chances with PCGS and "make" the coins than
buy them on the secondary market at close to what the seller paid.
This should imply an important point here: Most individuals do not
believe this market. Also, if the rest of the dealer community cared
and put in the time to slab current pop-top dates (especially
Memorial cents) these populations would rise dramatically within
a few months thus stabilizing this market at much, much lower
levels. Meanwhile, I will continue to supply this market until it's
no longer worthwhile. Cupronik
I got better prices before the registry on slabbed PCGS memorials. yes, some people have come into the market and brought down prices for the common stuff but real hard to find stuff will always hold it's value over the long run.
If this is so easy, just try and find these coins in high grade. It's a true challenge and I spend almost all of my time trying to find nice product and it's just not out there in abundance - trust me. If you know where to find nice stuff, I'm high buyer! 95+% of the rolls out there are pure junk. You might have to buy 500 rolls spead from 1959-2000 just to find a date or 2 worth slabbing and then unloading the product costs huge $ due to the weight. I only see prices increasing as we head towards the 2009 centenial and a great many people agree.
This is sort of a strange thread in that I buy virtually every Lincoln cent I sell already pre-slabbed. I slab a tiny, tiny % of the coins and prefer to buy them from dealers and collectors. So, of course, I personally make a 2 way market in every Lincoln I sell. I have no desire or need to post my buy prices - just PM me with what you have to sell and see how easy it is to move nice Lincoln cents
Wondercoin
<< <i>There are dealers that specialize in secondary market sales. Mitch (Wondercoin) places more high end registry coins than anyone I know. Is he looking to stock up on high priced inventory? Probably not, but he most likely can find a buyer for you. I am a primary market dealer. I find raw coins...search for the gems...and submit them. I don't really want to get into the high pressure area of brokering. I won't bid against my retail customers, and in fact, rarely bid on items at all. Occassionally I will place a starting bid on an item with my website ID to get in some cheap advertising. At this point, the demand for cents is greatly out-pacing the supply. And as Mark (Datentype) said, finding gem specimens can be very difficult. Try finding a 1962 P cent in MS67. There are thousands of rolls out there, but you will quickly find out that they are all junk. Where did the 4 pieces come from that are currently graded??? From 2 rolls I purchased 2 years ago at Baltimore. I've never seen any before or since that were of that quality! I can't say what the future is for any area of the hobby, but if the past is any indication, then we are all in for one hell of a ride! >>
There are some really good points in this post and it's well worth another read.
People since the very beginning of coinage have collected modern coins. There
were people collecting Roman coins when they were new and there were people
collecting bust dollars when they were new. The rarities and gems of the past
are still available today because of this. The number of collectors of moderns be-
gan to crash world-wide in 1950 and spiraled lower and lower over the years.
despite reduced numbers of collectors these numbers still managed to nosedive in
each country as their coins were converted to base metal. All these coins have long
been considered hopelessly common even as the last specimen was fed into a fur-
nace, or worn away in circulation. Yes, there are many extremely common US and
world coins from the last half of the 20th century, but what collectors are finding more
and more is that there are also some incredible rarities and that these rarities can be
found sometimes at common coin prices. As time goes by and more people begin to
collect some of these coins for the very first time there will be many more rarities found!
We are in for a ride and good seats remain.
I hope this market continues bringing high prices for pop-top Memorial
cents (and other modern coins.) Beginning in the Fall of 1998, I
began to slab high grade Ike Dollars and listed them on Teletrade since the ordinary coin market was in the doldrums and profits were limited.
Eventually, I expanded to all circulation-strike moderns as I noticed
the prices realized on Teletrade & E-Bay. The time and money in-
volved in searching through large quantities of mint sets & BU rolls
took me away from dealing in the staples of the coin market, namely
BU & circ silver dollars and collector coins. The lure was the percent
of profit from finding the right coin. I didn't disclose much to fellow
dealers since I didn't want competition in my new found arena.
Other dealers laughed when I did divulge a price realized for a cert-
ain coin. "Why would anyone waste money slabbing these?" was a
common response. Back in 2000 or 2001 I was at a coin show and
found a couple of nice original BU rolls of 1973-P & 1973-D quarters.
I told the owner, "people are now searching clad coinage rolls and
slabbing the high-grade singles." His response was. "Gee's that
sounds like a person who doesn't have a life!" I couldn't admit that
I was one of those guys so I didn't buy the rolls from him until
about nine months later at another show.
Anyway, I still devote most of my time to seeking out the right
modern coins even though the overall coin market has greatly
improved. It's true that there are a number of moderns proving
to be very tough in the ultimate grade and, due to the time, fees, and countless disappointing grading results, I wonder now if my time
is better spent doing volume business in those staple coins of the
market. I guess I just enjoy the hunt so much for the right
modern gem coin that has the potential to bring "boo-koo" bucks.
I assume the buyers of these coins are doing so with their eyes wide
open as opposed to eyes wide shut. I still would rather speculate
for future price appreciation on time-tested coins of value.
Would you rather buy a 1962-P PCGS MS-67 1c at current levels
(what would this coin sell for today?) or X ounces of gold bullion
at current levels?
As I stated in my previous response I will continue to hunt out these
coins and supply them to the market as conditiions warrant.
Regards. Cupronik.
The prices are really great for these coins (1800+++).
I am looking forward to the fall when I can sell some more at even higher prices.
Glen
I wonder if your idea would be more feasible, if it were the prospective buyers (and not the sellers) who listed the prices they were willing to pay for top-pop Lincolns memorials.
Dealers who actually had the coins in hand could then sell them if they were satisfied with the listed prices; otherwise they could counter-offer. And, if dealers don’t have the coins but feel the price is worth their effort, they could go off and try to find, or better yet try to make, the listed coins.
Other prospective buyers might post higher offers, so an equilibrium buy price might be attained under this system. This assumes people would not be shy about participating, or otherwise reluctant.
You are actively building memorial sets, mint state and proofs. How about listing a few prices at which you would buy coins you want?
I am not proposing this because I think it is a workable system, but I think it would flush out reasons why people prefer to be circumspect about what they are willing to pay for their wants.
until the rate of increase in demand and absolute number of available coins is
fixed in some fashion. The primary problem is that these markets are still very
thin and any changes in demand or the availability to the market of coins will
have a large impact on prices. These fluctuating prices and the accessability of
raw coins to market makers and dealers are the greatest impediments to nar-
row buy/sell spreads.
As more people begin to collect these coins it will serve to remove both of these
problems. Raw coins will always be a factor since many people collect them this
way, but they are still removed from the market whether they are slabbed or not.
Many of these will be off the market for many years since so many of the collect-
ors are quite young.