Pics of AT coins for CoinReports Website!

FrattLaw · July 24, 2003 10:56AM

Coppercoins (Chuck) just sent me some of the pics of AT coins we got back from PCGS in BBs. These are the pics that will be posted on CoinReports. I thought I'd post them and get some feedback. I think Coppercoins really did a great job capturing the color of these coins. Any thoughts?

Thanks
Michael

The Morgan is from JBSteven and the Kennedys are from Russ

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 10:58AM

that top one I believe was one of my donations. The colors are MUCH brighter blues!

good to see it is coming along. I encourage the board members to donate some $$$ to the cause.

(I now see my name, must have missed that)

Russ · July 24, 2003 11:04AM

Are you sure those Kennedys are AT?

Russ, NCNE

ohbaby · July 24, 2003 11:32AM

The Morgan would have fooled me with that photo. Looks like "Benson" toning. I guess that's the look they were going for?

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 11:36AM

oh:

the toning in person is a strange bright blue on the obverse but the reverse is a natural looking blue. PCGS slabbed 2 others with that order that had the natural looking blue toning. that one screams AT on the obverse only.

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 11:50AM

I didn't personally see those so as long as you say they look like the pictures that is good enough to me.
I wouldn't want them looking much more wilder or people would think those souped-up eBay sellers ran the site.
What does coinkiller mean when he says "The colors are MUCH brighter blues!"
Are the pictures accurate or not?

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 11:55AM

Dog

I mean exactly what I said. hard to understand or would a non coinkiller be able say it better?

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 12:19PM

Well what did you mean? That the coin is subdued with a brighter picture or that and the coin is actually brighter and the pictures are conservative?
I'm asking you exactly what I mean.

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 12:22PM

the blue is brighter in person on the obverse. I can say that the color is very hard to capture as I could not get it right when I tried to image it.

got it grumpyoldschoolcollector?

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 12:34PM

So do you think the picture is a good enough representation that if I found the 04-O you have in hand I could cross reference the site and get a close enough match to that picture to say my coin is probably AT?

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 12:41PM

yes the photo would do its job.

you going to be at the ANA? maybe I can get the coin there for you to look.

gsaguy · July 24, 2003 12:43PM

I suspect that the pic of the 04-O is not as good as it needs to be to accurately show those blues. I've not seen the coin in person but as scanned, those blues are not scary to me. They look like the blues you get from a Redfield holder or other album.

On average I'm suspicious of blue on Morgans. There's a fine line between that which looks right, and that which doesn't.

Having said the above, if that pic is not accurate, we'd do novice collectors and injustice to post it on the website.

GSAGUY

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 12:46PM

I bet greattoning could get a good photo of the blue the way it shows in person

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 12:58PM

Yes, the pictures are very important. Everybody has heard the dealers say "you can't judge a coin from a picture" so many times they expect all pictures to be unreal.
The average collector viewing the average coin under average lighting in the average shop doesn't know about the 333 degree tilt & Reveal bulbs and we want a picture close to what the coin looks like rather than trying to match a coin with a picture by "greattoning" for example.

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 1:01PM

dog

I somewhat agree with you but one thing is for sure the blue on the obverse is completely different from the reverse.

all in all I would say the photo is fine but if we can get another "look" to it that might help.

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 1:12PM

Well I guess basically I'm satisified with the picture & coppercoins did a great job & it should be an A1 site.
That's the difficulty of toned coins. I can make 6 different pictures of the same coin and try to pick the best pict for a Reg Set or a sale picture but though completely different they all look like the coin.

ps if the doctor had let that one cook a little longer he could have got it into a slab like it's sister.

coppercoins · July 24, 2003 1:17PM

I'll retake the photo, if that will help. I had my lights set up fo smaller coins, and only had the one Morgan to photo this time - but I'll change the lighting to get the full color of the Morgan and repost it in this thread.

I also have some 20 other coins to photo and will include them in this thread. I am hoping to have all that done this weekend.

Russ · July 24, 2003 1:21PM

Frankly, that blue toned Morgan would fool me very easily. Here's a similar one:

That one is 100% natural. It's toned the same way on the reverse. It's still in the old bank keepsake holder that caused the toning.

Russ, NCNE

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 1:22PM

That's great coppercoins. We understand that was just a sample picture. If you're going to post the coins to this thread I'll take down that off topic Morgan I just posted as not to clutter the thread.

FrattLaw · July 24, 2003 4:15PM

Hey, here's a thought -- maybe PCGS blew it on that one. I know they BBed a naturally toned 81-S Type II Proof Lincoln I sent in. Is it possible that they could have missed this one?

That's why Mark Feld and maybe GSAGUY will volunteer some help here. A guy that was a former NGC grader and a guy that knows toned Morgans just about better then anyone else on the planet might be able to render a better opinion then the 3 second PCGS grader. That's the purpose of the "Comments Section" that will be included with every pic. An explanation as to why this particular coin was BB as AT.

If it's too close of a call, I wouldn't want to use the coin. If the differences are that subtle then maybe we should pass on the coin. I want people to be able to use this site as a reference tool. If the coins are that close, the site might do more harm then good. I wouldn't want to make people second guess purchasing an NT coin.

Remember, this is a site to help stop the blantant AT doctors on Ebay. A really good job by a really good doctor will even slip by the services. A photo on a website isn't going to help in that situation. Perhaps in the future we can list some really good AT jobs as a feature of the site, but that gets a little dicey, legally speaking.

I want people to be able to access the site and say "gee, that raw toned coin I was going to buy from _______, looks just like that one on CoinReports, maybe I shouldn't buy it."

Thanks for all the comments and dialogue though. Keep them coming, that's why I posted the pics.

It's funny, though, with everyone on this Board crying foul over this doctor and that doctor, no one, except a few dedicated members have step forward to help.

Michael

stujoe · July 24, 2003 4:32PM

It would take a good write up for this novice to understand the difference between the AT coin and Dog's coin.

Dog97 · July 24, 2003 5:01PM

There is no difference.

FrattLaw · July 24, 2003 5:42PM

I see a slight difference -- JB's coin has some slight deeper purple on the obverse.

Dog -- what's your opinion. Both are AT, or are both NT and PCGS missed the boat on one of them, and which one.

Michael

stman · July 24, 2003 6:00PM

stman · July 24, 2003 6:05PM

dorkkarl · July 24, 2003 9:32PM

<< <i>Frankly, that blue toned Morgan would fool me very easily [-russ]... Hey, here's a thought -- maybe PCGS blew it on that one [-frattlaw] >>

pcgs did NOT blow it on the 1st morgan. that pattern of tone was applied by a well-known coin-dr, i'd recognize it anywhere. & russ, your coin is legit. they look similar, but there is 1 subtle but EXTREMELY IMPORTANT difference between the 2 coins.

hint: the difference has nothing to do w/ the actual colors/hues.

K S

dorkkarl · July 24, 2003 9:33PM

oh, & of course the heat-toning of the kennedy's is a no-brainer

K S

jbsteven · July 24, 2003 9:34PM

the blue on the obverse of my coin at the top is no mistaking it as being AT. It has a certain funny blue that I have never seen naturally.

Coppercoins

You are doing a great job, keep up the good work!

1jester · July 24, 2003 9:50PM

Frattlaw/Coppercoins, I think it's a wonderful idea to collect images of AT coins and post them for reference purposes. I commend your efforts!!!

Russ, I think the coin you posted has the NT look. I thought it was NT before I read your comments. First of all, the coloring is more even and concentric. Plus, there is a natural luster shining through the color, which is almost always missing from AT coins which in turn look flat. The luster is still there on yours, and pretty deep. Also, your coin displays a bit more variation in the coloring, in my opinion. For example, I don't see any green in the AT coin. Also, I simply don't like the shape/pattern of the coloration on the AT coin. And, as mentioned, the AT coin has different colors on the obverse and revers.

Frattlaw, please keep up the great work, and service to the community. I'm sorry but I don't personally have any AT coins to share.

dorkkarl · July 24, 2003 10:34PM

jbsteven, the peculiar hue of blue is not the determinant factor. as i mentioned, the actual color itself is not the key, ie. you can get some extraordinary, odd-ball colors depending on the chemical makeup of the holder. there is another extremely critical reason as to why coin #1 has mkt-unacceptable color.

both coins are of course not naturally toned, though #2 is mkt-acceptable

K S

Newkid · July 25, 2003 12:27AM

Judging from the pics the coin looks good to me.I would want another opinion on the coin.
Send it to NGC and give it one more chance. If they bodybag it then post the AT pic.

FrattLaw · July 25, 2003 12:59AM

Thanks for the accolades, but it's more then just myself and Coppercoins. GSAGUY, CoinGuy, Dog, stman, Zerbe & Wondercoin are all involved as well as other Board members.

If anyone wants to help please PM me. We are always looking for coin donations, help with the site and of course financial support. It's gets expensive to submit these coins for grading.

I expect within the next 60 days the site will be finished and we'll be able to beta test it here. It might be another 6 months before its operational and open to the public though.

Overall, I feel it will be an asset to the community, especially newbies and those who really don't know toning very well.

If it can put an end or at least have an large impact on the sale of BS AT coins on Ebay, it will have done some good.

PM me if you want to donate to CoinReports, thanks again.

Michael

LAWMAN · July 25, 2003 3:23AM

fratlaw: I understand what you are doing and I commend you for it. If there were a full color reference site of all US types AT and NT, at least in the opinion of PCGS or NGC, it would help us all. The Morgan would easily fool me. Equally important is who is doing the AT'ing! Any leads on that?

coppercoins · July 25, 2003 4:19AM

New photos, and additional coins photographed...

You will notice that the photo of the 1904-O Morgan has been updated with better lighting. The toning has so much contrast that parts of the coin are very dark in the photo, but that's just the way it came out, and the way the coin looks.

As for the others:

Currently awaiting the next package, and will post photos when it arrives.

coppercoins · July 25, 2003 12:21PM

No comments? Strange... TTT because I think everyone missed it.

jbsteven · July 25, 2003 12:25PM

the 04 Morgan looks better. It is my coin so I would say the colors are fine now for the website.

good job

BTW Russ sure knows how to buy the AT stuff!

Russ · July 25, 2003 12:28PM

<< <i>BTW Russ sure knows how to buy the AT stuff! >>

Yeah, I got ripped a new one on those Kennedy halves. I still haven't recovered emotionally from that screw job.

Russ, NCNE

sinin1 · July 25, 2003 12:30PM

I sure hope some of the master forgers (ATers) do not use the real examples as blueprints

Even aswimmer has some coins that are looking passable

Yesterday I popped on a proof seated liberty and then saw this seller and his splotchy toning -

couldn't back out fast enough

jbsteven · July 25, 2003 12:31PM

<< <i>still haven't recovered emotionally from that screw job >>

it must be bad as I have been told you were emotionally screwy many times!

jbsteven · July 25, 2003 12:32PM

sinin

the "master forgers" already know what NT looks like. but I know where you are coming with that.

bumanchu · July 25, 2003 3:02PM

And I thought a coin would always be worth at least face value.....at a minimum one of the halves is worth about minus $13.00 !!

stujoe · July 25, 2003 10:47PM

You take some awesone picutres Copper Coins. Keep up the good work guys. Can't wait to see the site on-line.

Russ · July 26, 2003 3:49AM

Here's a couple of them that I shot before sending them off to Michael:

When I originally posted them, the eagle eye membership spotted them as AT right off the bat.

Russ, NCNE

Pics of AT coins for CoinReports Website!

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