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Question for someone who got the B&M catalog
mbbiker
Posts: 2,873 ✭
I was paging thru it and saw the 1935 peace dollar on page 255 and am amazed at how much chatter is on the cheek plus the hits on the bottom of the neck for being a 67. Anyone else think it's overgraded or is it just a bad pic?
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I don't care if PCGS put a "71" on it as long as they guarantee authenticity.........
Yes, I agree the 58 is probably not consistent with other slabbed 1804s. Doesn't matter. This coin will sell for it's history, it's pedigree, the thousands of pages written about 1804s, and not for some $30 opinion from PCGS.
Think about it this way.......suppose your buddy bought this coin......and then was showing it off to everyone and you happened by......would you start loudly complaining about how PCGS misgraded it???? Somehow I think there are more important things to talk about when it comes to 1804s. And you probably wouldn't have a cool coin buddy after that either
I disagree there. That number can make a coin worth more money to people who only care about the plastic the coin is encapsulated in. If that coin was graded a 68 instead of a 58, regardless of what we thought, it would likely bring over $4 million just because the plastic said so! PCGS would simply not exist if these numbers did not make people money. They mean EVERYTHING. I agree, it's a bit different when you have a coin with the history of the 1804 but that number means everything to plastic lovers.
Think about it- PCGS can't replace it... they can't find a market price difference... clean it, whizz it, it's still an 1804 dollar and that's what counts... if the 1913 liberty nickel is holed, it will still sell for over $1 million because of what it is, not what the holder says. Besides a coin that famous is known by the graders- if it went for a regrade, you better believe they'd know how it started, and that it won't then change.
Jeremy
<< <i>Anyone else think it's overgraded or is it just a bad pic? >>
I love you guys who look at one huge picture of a coin, focus in on a problem or two, then declare, as if it could be no other way, that one of the two most respected grading companies in history has obviously blown another one.
I don't know if it's "overgraded" or if it is a "bad pic." I do know that the pic is twice the size of a peace dollar, and consequently any "problems" you're seeing might actually appear twice as bad as they would if you had the coin in your hand.
The coin doesn't seem noticeably worse than the coin on the immediately preceding page, about which there has been no complaint, yet, (although the toning on the 35 looks just dandy, to me). This isn't an ms70 here, just obviously a really nice coin. I'm pretty sure I wouldn't mind owning either of them.
z
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>I see. So why is it in a 68 holder, if it's really not a 68 and the grade apparently doesn't matter? That's interesting to me... >>
The pedigreed and famous stuff does seem to get a few extra points... granted that is still not "acceptable," the market doesn't seem to mind... at least no the sellers, and buyers don't seem to be complaining, either.
As for coins that are such rarities, I'll stand behind my position that the grade DOES NOT matter. The demand is so high, and the rarity so exceptional, that people DON'T buy points here... you can see one is better than the other, but hey, that doesn't mean someone's going to pass up a once-in-a-lifetime opportunity.
As Legend if her coin is overgraded. Although probably not, ask her if she actually cares. I remember her talking about how for over 25 years, her biggest goal was to own a 1913 Liberty nickel. She didn't say a piece of plastic that says 1913 Liberty Nickel on it... she said an actual nickel was what she wanted. She owns the nickel, and I'm sure she doesn't care what the holder actually says.
Jeremy
Let history actually be the judge of that, I don't believe 16 years is enough time.
Take all your coins out of your cabinet and look at them for about five hours with no breaks and tell me you don't make a mistake. Indeed they have a great deal of skill but they are not perfect. Your eyes can easily miss something when your under a light and a magnifying glass for 8 hours on end. They're nice coins, just don't know if they would be in a 67 PCGS holder.
Missed you at the advanced grading seminar, by the way. We didn't see nearly as many coins, but we did see some beauts. One of the things we learned was how often a coin makes it to the finalizer just to be broken out and regraded. They said this happens up to 20-25% of the time! They said sometimes the coin just "doesn't look right in the slab." Sometimes a coin graded dmpl just looks wrong, or the toning looks darker; I guess any number of things can make a coin look much better out of a slab than in it, (right, karl?).
Or, I guess sometimes they put a coin in, say, a 66 holder and they look at it and decide it looks so obviously stupid in there that they better bump it up to a 67....
I agree with you 100% but I believe the context of what I meant to say is being misunderstood. I am by no means saying a PF58 1804 Dollar isn't a desirable coin, I would love to have it even in the holder it's in but there is no denying the fact that a PR68 will bring more money than a PR65 if they were sold on the same day, simply because the PR68 is the finer of the two. Sure, it may not matter if they're overgraded but what I mean to say is that the number, even if it is inflated, does make a difference in the ending price, even on rarities such as the 1913 nickel and 1804 Dollar.
There may not be many coins to compare them with but let's use a hypothetical argument. Say you had two 1913 Liberty nickels, one a 66 and the other a 64. The 66 would probably hit a little more than the 64 because of the grade. Indeed they are rarities, but the grade DOES matter.
I'm in no way saying it is wrong of PCGS to put a 68 on an 1804 Dollar but if you put the 68 up against the NGC 67, the 68 is still going to bring slightly more money if sold on the same day. Why? Because it's graded higher and therefore is more desirable as the finer of the two.
and it sets us apart from practitioners and consultants. Gregor
<< <i>Let history actually be the judge of that, I don't believe 16 years is enough time.
Take all your coins out of your cabinet and look at them for about five hours with no breaks and tell me you don't make a mistake. Indeed they have a great deal of skill but they are not perfect. Your eyes can easily miss something when your under a light and a magnifying glass for 8 hours on end. They're nice coins, just don't know if they would be in a 67 PCGS holder. >>
At this point in time, which is all we have, are you saying the NGC and PCGS are not, by far, the two most respected grading companies?
Anyway, as they mention in the catalog, NGC has only graded 96 ms67's for the entire peace dollar series. (The PCGS pop report that I have handy is from two years ago, when they had awarded the grade 110 times.) It appears that neither company just gives out a grade of 67 on a whim.
I agree that when I see the coin in person I may find it not quite as stellar as the write up it's been given. (Although there's an equal chance that I will find the coin quite satisfying.)
I'm just not as quick as some to denigrate an opinion such as this on the basis of one photo.
I was really just trying to learn how to grade peace dollars and wanted to know if the cheek (which i thought was an important part of the grade) could look like that and still get the 67 grade. Like i said i haven't seen it and just based my opinion on a pic BUT that pic is what a lot of people are going to look at and deside from that pic how much they want to spend on that coin.
<< <i>but there is no denying the fact that a PR68 will bring more money than a PR65 if they were sold on the same day, simply because the PR68 is the finer of the two. >>
Remember- I said the grades are relative. Let's say the Child's coin is really only a 66 (more likely a 67)... that means your hypothetical 65 is really a 63- the spread is the same, and the coins are the same. One is clearly finer than the other, and that can be seen either by the fact that the grades, regardless of grade inflation, are 3 points apart, or just noticing that one coin has more marks.
Remember when there was the ruckus about the 1933 double eagle being called a 65 with that gash on its knee? Did it matter? The coin was still the very same coin... if the plastic changed, it wasn't going to be less desireable.
Jeremy
mbbiker, I still stand by my statement that it should not be a 67 judging by the cheek, even if it is just a photograph. I don't think it would hit that in a PCGS holder.