Have your RED cents turned BROWN?

ER

Have any of you had your certified RED cents turn BROWN while in their slabs?
What do you do if that happens? Because as I understand it, red cents are in general worth more than brown ones, for the same date and MM.

shylock

I've seen a few redbrown cents turn red after they were cracked out of their slabs

wallstreetman

More like purple with pink poka dots! Maybe I should crack out and try for a star!

mdwoods

No, but my brown eyes turned blue!!

I know of someone that the experts consult on whether or not a slabbed coin is in danger of turning. I guess it's rare, but
it can happen. I would imagine from contaminants on the coin prior to slabbing. mdwoods

wallstreetman

Seriously, I have some lincolns that are turning orange on the devices, looks really neat, its making the cameo look deeper and deeper!

topstuf

The RED in copper is SUPPOSED to turn brown. ALL reds will be brown someday. As much as I like full red coppers, I don't expect them to stay red for eternity.

coinguy1

Er,

I have, unfortunately, seen numerous "RB" copper coins in "RD" holders and "BN" ones in "RB" holders, where the only plausible explanation is that the coins had "turned" in the holders. The price differences can be very large, in terms of both dollars and percentages.

It is my understanding that PCGS guarantees their copper coins (they reimbursed us a fair market value difference in price, for a "RD" example that had changed to "RB"). NGC recently began guaranteeing their copper, as well, subject to it already being in, or screened and approved for encapsulation in, their new holders.

topstuf

I believe the Tucker automobile also had a good guarantee.



And the point is????

wallstreetman

What do you mean its suppose to turn brown? Thats like saying all AT coins are suppose to be that color! If they are kept from the elements they wont change color! Sometimes these elements are seal inside, but will only effect the coin for a short period!

Barry

Question for any chemists out there:
Why do copper coins turn brown when they oxidize (oops, I mean tone), and not green like cooper a copper roof?
As I recall from college chemistry, a long time ago, copper is multi-valent (is that the right word?) and can combine in the cuprous or cupric form. I presume it has something to do with that. Can anyone explain in some detail?

Lakesammman

I've never personally owned a red coin that changed color and I have about 60 of them. I'm a relative new comer (collecting red IHC's since 1995). It may be because I buy only coins that look original to me, preferably in older holders, many photosealed. The ones I have that are RB are also stable over this period. Finally, I am anally compulsive about storage to include intercept shield boxes and copper-wool in the vicinity.

I've seen many RB coins in red holders but have never been sure if these were properly graded in the first place. Some dates tend to get the benifit of the doubt and those years have alot of RB coins in red holders. I bought one of these recently, a 1867, just because I loved the toning and strike.

Anyway, I would love to hear from anyone that has a bonafide story regarding a ORIGINAL red PCGS coin turning RB while they owned it. I'm sure it's happened but it's gotta be for a reason (AT to begin with, improper storage, etc).

Stewart - what's your experience??

topstuf

I wasn't aware that slabs were 100% air tight. If they are, then I suppose copper would remain as sealed.

cherrypickincoin

None of my cents have turned brown, no. I do, however, have a modern commemorative (1991-1995 WWII 50c NGC MS70) that was white when I bought it and now the reverse is almost completely brown with some kind of mottled toning. Don't ask me how it got there!

coinguy1

<< <i>I wasn't aware that slabs were 100% air tight. If they are, then I suppose copper would remain as sealed >>

topstuff, supposedly, gases can permeate the plastic and the oxidation process, which begins before a coin is sealed, can continue afterwards, regardless of the holder. I strongly recommend that people be "anally compulsive" about storage, like Lakesammman is.

dpoole

I have had Lincolns that have turned or started to turn from Rd to RB. I have put all the worthwhile ones in Intercept Shields and boxes. I don't know if that will do the trick (it's supposed to), but I sleep better.

wallstreetman

Without proper storage, Red Cents arent the only coins that will turn brown! I believe some slabs get sealed better than others, so it is a good idea to keep coins in a cool, dry place! All my coins that arent slabbed are in Airtites!

shylock

Sometimes there's almost no doubt they turned in the holder, but they usually look like they've been played with.

Lakesammman

Hey Shylock, that's a brand-X holder. Show me a PCGS example....

coinguy1

Tim, here's one in a PCGS holder - it took me about 10 seconds to find it:

Edited to add: Sorry, deleted due to technical difficulties.

Lakesammman

Coinguy:

I was just having fun with Shylock. If you know me, you know I can go through a registry set auction of red IHC's and not find one that I like....now that's fussy!

coinguy1

And another:

Edited to add: Sorry, deleted due to technical difficulties.

callawayc7

I haven't had any Red cents turn brown yet, but I have had a blast white roosevelt dime turn ugly brown in an NGC holder. Not sure why because I've stored it properly. I guess it was still "reacting" when it was encapsulated.

toothpuller

Heritage's red IHCs frequently look RB. It's just a function of their imaging skills. That 79 sure does look awful.

shylock

Geeze, that 1879 has been cremated.

Lakesammman

Mark....please....I just finished lunch.......

tjkillian

Rick Snow has said that he has not seen any red copper indian cents that was properly graded turn brown in a holder. He says that if it has not turned in the past 100 years, what makes you think that it will turn while you have it? My response would be that the enviroment has changed, i.e. from a dry mid-west to a corrosive coastal area. Personally, I have not seen any copper turn in a holder.

Tom

BigMoose

If anyone has a Red 1794 large cent that has turned RB, I will get you out of it at a really good price!!

coinguy1

<< <i>Rick Snow has said that he has not seen any red copper indian cents that was properly graded turn brown in a holder. He says that if it has not turned in the past 100 years, what makes you think that it will turn while you have it >>

I must strongly disagree with that comment. But, I do agree with your mention of the changed environment, Tom.

A "RD" copper coin (or any other coin, for that matter) might remain undisturbed for decades and then, in a short time span, be subjected to a changed/different environment, as well as handling by a number of people. The fact that a "RD"coin has defied the odds and remained "RD" for many years, does not mean it will continue to do so, especially, once it's environment has changed.

The surprise should not be that a "RD" coin turns to "RB", but rather, that it remained "RD" for as long as it did.

291fifth

You may remember back in the late 1980's there was quite a debate about whether coppers would deteriorate in their holders. In the case of red cents in my own collection that are in early holders I can't detect any deterioration.

LincolnCentMan

I've owned thousands of PCGS Lincolns.... many for over a couple of weeks. I've never had a PCGS (or NGC) cent that I felt became darker while it was in my collection. I have, however, seen many "RD" examples that were clearly RB. I've never seen a brown coin with "RD" on the lable.

David

toothpuller

A couple of weeks back I saw a nice newly encapsulated MS65RD IHC in an online dealer's inventory. I thought it would fit in well with my collection until I heard its history.

Turns out it was bought raw from a Stack's auction about six months ago. The day the new owner took it home it just happened to be a chilly -10 degrees in NYC. That in itself wouldn't have been so bad, but it was really snowing and the ground was extremely icy. They had just thrown some salt down, but it really wasn't too effective yet. Unfortunately, the owner fell hard to the ground dropping the coin in a salty, slushy mess. He sure hoped the envelope had protected it.

When he arrived at his apartment with the coin he was relieved that the coin looked fine. He left it to dry out near the fireplace and went next door to the Chinese restaurant to grab something to eat.

The next day it was off to be graded.

Unfortunately the weather was damn hot in SoCal. The postal truck had poor air circulation and the small package had become lodged under a seat. It spent three days and three nights out in the blistering heat in the truck. More unfortunately, the post office parking lot was located near a strong ammonia smelling pesticide factory. But after those three days it was found and subsequently arrived at its destination.

Three months later, the day it was in the grading room was a miserable one. Everyone had some mysterious flulike illness, with the accompanying hacking, wheezing, and expectorating. It was nearly impossible to keep a few droplets from falling on the coin. Involuntary bodily movements made it very difficult to hold the coin firmly on its edge and one or two thumbs surely grazed its surface.

A month later the coin was back in NYC and looked really fine in its new slab. The owner was pleased with the grade, but decided to consign it with the well known dealer.

I really like the look of this coin and it is a date that I need, but I am concerned its appearance could change for the worst over time. Should I be worried?

ldhair

I have had several Lincolns turn RB after being slabbed.

After 30+ years in my care they were nice red coins.

Something to do with the poly bags, the flips, the trip to PCGS
or something else turned several to RB after a couple of years.

Kinda sad.

jdimmick

I had posted this similar comment when I first became a member. I too have seen several coins graded RD, that I personaly thought should have been in an RB holder.(For discussion, I am referring to PCGS only). This was possibly due to mellowing down, or not holdered correctly to begin with, I dont know?

Anyway, before I was familar with the PCGS guarantee.

few years ago, While I was visiting in Idaho, (Cool dry, low humidity) I purchased a beautiful full red 1914-d PCGS-64 RD Lincoln cent. After bringing it back to North Carolina (high humidity), and after several months I began to notice a slight browning effect, it got to the point where it looked RB to me. To this day, I believe that the enviroment change from Idaho to North carolina created the change in color.

Several of the experienced copper members on this board indicated it was probably just me, maybe it was, but I am still not convinced!

STEWARTBLAYNUMIS

Mark - Lakesamman may be anally compulsive but you are certainly anally retentive.I luv ya Mark

Why a coin could change color?

1) composition of metal mixture - wood grain toning

2) PCGS slabs are not air tite
3) NGC (new) slabs are air tite

a)if a coin is left for a period in the sun..it WILL tone
if copper is stored near an ocean environment -miami beach

Copper has been dippedsince at least the 1950's,
and has taken a pink hue.Some is market acceptable and others get body bagged.Some mechanics are better than others.
After a coin is dipped it must be washed with water thoroughly and some techniques work better than others.Every coin mechanic screws up coins.Sometimes they get lucky but they will always screw up some coins.

Acetone - is used to get glue,goo and schmutz off a coin.It is also used to enhance luster

ms 70 - Will cause copper to turn the color of Russ's 1882 Indian cent in the ms 63 Brown holder.It is a magenta or purplish color

For the above reasons a copper coin can change color in the holder.I own a full red 1807 Large cent that is graded ms 66 red by PCGS.This coin managed to stay red for 200 years.
I also believe that luck is an unexplainable factor

stewart

DHeath

Didn't early collectors laquer the copper to prevent exposure to the atmosphere? BTW - for those really interested, the link below will be a good read re the conservation of copper coins, and explains the use of BTA and the techniques employed by marine conservators.

Copper coin conservation

topstuf

I think I'll just stay with STARTING OUT brown.

They look OK.

Lakesammman

I had a IHC 1877 P66R a few years back. The reverse was subdued. Every time I pulled it out, I swore it was getting darker. The obverse never changed. After a few years, I traded it in. I finally realized I was just paranoid about the color. That's the hard part about coin color - they look different day to day depending on the light and your mood and it's hard to know if they really have changed or not!

291fifth

If you really want to see what your coins look like view them under an Ott Light. These use color corrected bulbs. You really can't do a color comparison unless you have a light source that you can use time-after-time. The lighting in convention halls is usually terrible for viewing coins.

dorkkarl

<< Rick Snow has said that he has not seen any red copper indian cents that was properly graded turn brown in a holder. He says that if it has not turned in the past 100 years, what makes you think that it will turn while you have it >>then rick snow is dramatically mistaken. there's a simple reason for red coins to suddenly turn brown in the slab: chemicals leaching out of the plastic. despite pcgs's claims to the contrary, it is NOT POSSIBLE to manufacture plastic that is guaranteed not to leach chemically. that said, an improper storage environment (ie excessive heat, etc) will make the plastic more likely to leach.

K S

Zerbe

>>>>>>>>>>there's a simple reason for red coins to suddenly turn brown in the slab: chemicals leaching out of the plastic. despite pcgs's claims to the contrary, it is NOT POSSIBLE to manufacture plastic that is guaranteed not to leach chemically. that said, an improper storage environment (ie excessive heat, etc) will make the plastic more likely to leach.<<<<<<<<<<


Yikes Karl, you may have started mass destruction of plastic slabs.
Imagine all the slabbed coins hidden in attics in Florida, just leaching away and turning coins ??? Hope somebody offers a reason that counters your claim, before everyone runs out to buy a claw hammer.

coinguy1

Zerbe/Paul, fear not. While Karl OCCASIONALLY makes some good points (and I know he has many more of them, just waiting to turn loose on us ), he is merely setting the stage for the introduction of his soon-to-be formed "Dork Karl's Anti Slab Service" (DKASS).

Zerbe

Do slabs pass gas ??