A few questions from a new member!

Myqqy · July 12, 2003 5:21PM

hello to everyone- I first wanted to say that I've been reading posts at this message board for a while, and I'm appreciative of all of the
knowledge and insight presented by the members. I am a relatively new collector- I began collecting when young, and then forgot about
the hobby until about 2 years ago. I'm learning as much as I can, and this message board has already been a very substantial asset to me.
With that being said, I do have a few questions regarding modern proofs (with proofs I have been focusing on cameo Franklins as well as
proof sets), and I would be appreciative of any and all responses.
First, can someone elaborate on hairlines, their cause, and exactly how they affect the grading of a proof coin? Are they strictly mint-made,
or can they occur after the minting process? How does their placement on a coin affect the grading? Are they more of a detriment on the
devices, or in the fields?
Secondly, does anybody have any information on how to differentiate between cameo, deep cameo, and ultra cameo? I am guessing that
different grading companies might have different standards for this- is their an industry standard that was around prior to this glorious age
of slabbing companies? (I'm not sure how sarcastic I'm being with that last comment. I have a lot of mixed feelings about the current
state of slabbing and grading, but I digress.)
Any comments are appreciated- thanks to everyone!

Myqqy

Robgetty · July 12, 2003 5:28PM

Welcome to the boards.

Deep Cameo = PCGS
Ultra Cameo = NGC

Theoretically it is the same grade.

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:35PM

Hairlines, hairlines, hairlines..... these nasty guys are grade killers... and yet, Frankies are known for them... I suppose someone could create their own "hairline" by improperly handling the coin, but they come from the mint... I have found some hairlined coins still in the mint plastic....... Is it a product of the dies or handling from the mint??? I have always been told its the latter......

Cam, DCAM, Ultra cam....... hmmmm........ This is my experience in getting these coins graded by PCGs...... for all three designations you have to have frost on the devices........ a frosty coin with mild mirrors will usually get the cam des..... a dcam does require heavy frost but in my experience with pcgs, deep mirrors go along way and can make up for some not so deep frost and even frost breaks as long as the breaks are not to distracting..... Now the pcgs definition sez no frost breaks, however, I have yet to see a 56 that does not have any frost breaks......... a Deep mirrored coin will reflect frankies face two to three times in the field... I guess you could say all the devices will reflect in this manner:

Notice on this dcam frankie of mine how you can see frankies reflection atleast three times. Also, when held at the right angle a deep cam will really look like a cool black and white coin..........

notice this coin, which fades to a black and white contrast rather nicely..

This one was a tad soft on the frost in the letters and the mirrors are not as strong as the 57 above.... I got a pr67cam grade on this submission.........

coinlieutenant · July 12, 2003 5:39PM

Myqqy,

I'm getting ready to go to bed but figured I would check the boards before. Here goes some quick and dirty answers.

Hairlines are light lines on coins, both business and proof coins but mostly associated with proofs. They are caused by a variety of things on proofs since the surfaces are so delicate. Usually a light brush with a cloth of any sort will leave hairlines on a proof.

They are not mint made and occur after striking. Other marks happen during striking, like die polishing , that look like hairlines but are different. hairlines are in the coin. Die polishing is raised and can be discerned with a good eye or a good loupe. Their placement does have some effect but not always. Any sort of marks in the focal areas of a coin is worse than having hairlines in the hidden areas. These areas vary from coin to coin. A good grading guide will help you with the different series eccentricities.

How to differentiate between cam and DCAM/UCAM. First of all DCAM/UCAM are the same, just different names by different grading companies. I personally feel NGC is a bit more stringent on the Cam and UCAm than PCGS. Essentially for a coin to be a CAM there has to be a significant contrast between mirrored fields and frosted motifs. For a DCAM/UCAM there has to be excellent contrast and fully frosted devices. The best way is to look at a lot of coins and develop your eye. Hard mirrors coupled with superfrost equals DCAM.

I have a complete Proof Date set of Franklins in CAM/UCAM. Interested in some duplicates I have?

John

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:40PM

here is another coin I submitted:

notice the frost breaks on the three wisps of hair (to the right of frankies ear) and also to the left of his ear, and follow the hairline down and you will see yet another frost break on his hair by frankies neck. Every single 56 I have even seen in a dcam has this, who knows why the dies casued this at the mint. However, this coin is still heavely frosted and has knockout deep mirrors.... I had pulled this one from a proof set I bought..

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:43PM

Here is a slamdunk DCAM, A monster!

This one must have been one of the very first coins struck......

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:46PM

this 56 I sent in went pr67cam:

you can see frost weakness throught franklins face/head...... the reverse was similar, this does have some nice mirrors but alas, not as deep as the 56 above in my previous post.

coinlieutenant · July 12, 2003 5:46PM

I cant keep up with Lucy on Frankies but here is a CAM example.

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:48PM

Now here is the ultimate Rarity in Frankie proofs.... Only a handful are known to exist... seek out this GEM as it would be a MAJOR MAJOR score!

coinlieutenant · July 12, 2003 5:49PM

I do have some other examples though.

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:53PM

This coin was sent to me for my evaulation from another board member. It sat in a NGC pr67 Cam holder.....

It had the frost and mirrors... I recommended that this member crack it and submit to PCGs.... The coin now sits in a pr68 DCAM holder.

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 5:59PM

Here is another that I submitted for grading:

notice this one does also have some weak areas for frost however, the mirrors on this one are very deep and carried the coin to the dcam status...

LucyBop · July 12, 2003 6:05PM

Another thing to look for is the Type 1/ Type 2 variety found in the 56 proof. The dies were changed at some point during this year resulting in a more detialed Eagle on the reverse.

here is a type 1 Eagle:

This Eagle is found in the years 1950 thru the first part of 56. All Type one Eagles will look like this.

Here is a type 2 Eagle:

Notice all the detail in the Eagle, the feathers on the wings, on the breast. This Eagle will show up on all proofs from somepoint in 56 thru 63.

If you find a type 1 56 in any kind of cam this is a major score.... Learn what these look like, compare say a 50-55 eagle with a 57-63, lay them side by side and study the Eagle, because, a coin was being sold here in a type 1 holder for a premium when the coin was clearly a type 2.

jonesy · July 12, 2003 7:23PM

Pretty Impressive Lucy Doll!!

291fifth · July 12, 2003 8:08PM

Industry standards??? Remember we are talking about the coin business here.

islemangu · July 12, 2003 9:18PM

Wow!! the LucyBop/Coinluentant Show.

Thank you

ursabear · July 12, 2003 9:38PM

Myqqy,

Good morning and welcome to the boards!

I hope you enjoy your stay here.

Hairlines are definitely grade-lowerers. A seriously-hairlined coin will bring its grade down to the PR62-64 range easily, even if there are no spots and there is killer contrast between the mirrors and the frosted fields. Also, any hairlines at all will keep the coin from the PR69 and PR70 grade.

ursabear · July 12, 2003 9:39PM

P.S. How do you pronounce your user name? Perhaps "Mickey"?

Louis · July 12, 2003 10:23PM

Welcome to the boards...

buc · July 12, 2003 10:32PM

This 1958 Franklin was submitted and it came back DCam, along with a note stating that this is the least amount of Frost/Mirrors allowed by PCGS to qualify as a DCam.

LucyBop · July 13, 2003 4:49AM

ttt

Russ · July 13, 2003 5:01AM

Myqqy,

To give you an example of just how much hairlines will kill a grade, look at these two coins:

Those two coins came off the same die pair. The first is a PR68DCAM, the second a PR65DCAM. The difference is that the second one has hairlining in the left obverse field.

Grading services, and PCGS in particular, hate hairlines.

Russ, NCNE

ksteelheader · July 13, 2003 5:34AM

Russ, I got four of those AH thingys yesterday, and they're hairlined to hell...Ken

Russ · July 13, 2003 5:42AM

<< <i>Russ, I got four of those AH thingys yesterday, and they're hairlined to hell.. >>

Ken,

For some reason the problem is far more prevalent in the Accented Hair than it is on the regular variety. About 40% of those I get in are heavily hairlined and grade no better than PR64 because of it. Another 30% or so have at least some light hairlining. That's the main reason PCGS has only granted the 69 grade to 35 examples, while the regular has a pop of over 1300 in 69.

Russ, NCNE

Myqqy · July 13, 2003 9:39AM

Everyone-

wow- thanks for the amazing responses, and particular thanks to Lucy for all of the stellar photos and descriptions. It
seems like there is a fair amount of subjectivity when it comes to the depth of mirrors, but I'm getting better
perspective with all of the examples I've been looking at and purchasing. And I'm starting to wonder about how
many cameo Franklins Lucy may have in her collection........

Does anybody out there try to cherrypick choice cameo Franklins in 2nd tier grading slabs, and then submit them to
PCGS or NGC? Has anybody gotten burned with that type of approach?

In case anybody's wondering, Myqqy could be pronounced "micky" or could be pronounced "mikey" depending on
your mood- For my whole life (33 years) my father would call me "mikey" when he would get in one of those rare,
affectionate moods, and I thought to make the spelling a bit more exotic for user name purposes.

Thanks again for everone's responses- I love this place.

Myqqy

cladking · July 13, 2003 2:55PM

Welcome aboard.

There have never been true standards for coin grading but today we're closer
to it than in the past. The grading services do have "standards" for what is
allowed in the various grades, but it still basically comes down to pricing coins
based on the demands and whims of the market.

Lucy; That's a very impressive '56 Proof.

A few questions from a new member!

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