Network 54: PSA and the BBB???

mrc32

I read both this board (which is by far the best board for intelligent card folks) and the Network 54 board for the knowledge and discussion of pre-war cards.

I saw this thread over there about PSA and I thought I would post a link here. I was not aware PSA was in such bad standing with the BBB.

Link

Michael

PS-I am not looking to get banned, just to discuss PSA and its current state. Network 54 is notorious for hating card grading companies. There is even a thread on entitled "My Top Ten Reasons Why Graded Cards May Ruin the Hobby!" So be warned....

DrNguyenVanFalk

My guess is that virtually every company that has large quantities of dealings with the "general public" via mail has received a bad rating from the Better Business Bureau.

Hobbyists, especially Internet-savy hobbyists, seem to have a tendency to hold grudges and get into frequent heated exchanges regarding their hobby (just look at this board, or Network 54). Also, eBay has turned every collector into a small-time capitalist, and when money (greed) clouds the minds of a non-business person, a retaliatory e-mail to the BBB is often the chosen course of action.

Most of us acknowledge that PSA, and SGC and GAI for that matter, are fallible. Nothing in the Network 54 thread bothers me; I read posts with an obvious agenda to push just like I read prices in Tuff Stuff - with a large grain of salt.

jrinck

There's just something about the Better Business Bureau that I don't trust. The BBB strongly encourages ANY company to PAY to become a member of the BBB. The qualifications to be a member don't seem to be that strict. So what does paying get you? A good recommendation? Does not becoming a member mean you'll get trashed in their rating? Makes me wonder.

And if you want to pick on Collector's Universe, hold off a bit. How many of you read Consumer Reports Magazine? Do you trust it? The company that puts it out is called "Consumers Union". Check their rating on the BBB. UNSATISFACTORY as well. Hmmm.

To me the BBB is irrelevant.

mrc32

Both are great points....

dude

Well written DrNguyenVanFalk. It's really hard to comment without seeing the actual BBB documentation submitted by the complainants. But along with your comments, I can only add that several years ago PSA was a victim of their own success. They became so popular so quickly that they faced problems such as the three month turnaround times on their deliveries and they were clearly understaffed to handle all the inquiries. Times have changed. Now there is new management and the turnaround times appear to be the fastest in the industry and the customer service is outstanding. If those BBB complaints are from 4 years ago, then I'm not surprised in the least.

As for the thread on entitled "My Top Ten Reasons Why Graded Cards May Ruin the Hobby!" is actually very shortsighted in my opinion. Many former collectors will tell you that doctored and overgraded cards pretty much ruined the hobby in the '90's. Grading does a great job, but a not perfect job of addressing these problems. Reading through that thread, you have to be very careful regarding some of the nonsense that was written. For those of you who followed the War on Iraq, you probably heard of the Iraqi Minister of Information, who was also known as "Baghdad Bob".


Baghdad Bob

As someone once said, "Art imitates life". Sports cards are a form of art in my opinion. Unfortunately, the way I see it, our hobby also has a Minister of Misinformation known as Madison Mike. Everyone needs to disregard Madison Mike's rancorous and embittered comments about PSA.

z2345

Why is that dishonest person still pursuing this? As I understand it he claims to have sent PSA a $6000 card and he alleges that PSA lost the card.

The problem is that this scammer does not have any proof that his package included the $6000 card. His package contained a group of lesser value cards, which were all returned to him. The PSA submissions form did not include any mention of this $6000 card, only the lesser value cards. He was asked to produce another submissions form, but........oops......there isn't one to produce.

Finally, we all ask why can't he make a claim against the post office for this loss. The reason is because this cheat did not insure the package. How many of you send $6000 card through the mail without insurance?

Now he is contacting the BBB, teh AG and writing articles about PSA's f-ups??? Give me a break!

KING KELLOGG

Looks like to me...

That Dan Mckee sent in his most prized "GEM MINT" cards and they all came back what they actually were...trimmed, PSA 4's, tea soaked, etc, etc, etc......just sour grapes....


It also states ( in the AG quotes) general AG policy....... It says nothing about PSA, or XYZ. Useless copy to try to defame PSA.



Without a broad based comparison (and I don't mean Dan's 11 cards or so..) How could anyone make a rational decision.


I've sent in 10's of thousands of cards to PSA and, by far, the professional grading and business ethics were solid.


Maybe the BBB should look at the "54" board...That would be interesting!!!




$.02



Larry

Mantlefan

I've sent in 10's of thousands of cards to PSA and, by far, the professional grading and business ethics were solid.

Agree with the King. Never had a problem with PSA. When they rarely missed the deadline for grading services, I received free gradings without any argument.

MartinDihigo

King Kellogg and z2345,

How many dealings have you guys had with Dan McKee? Would you mind sharing your experiences? The way you guys are bashing him, you must have both been badly burned by him and are therefore bitter and trying to help the rest of us out by warning us not to do business with him.

If you haven't done business with him, I'd be interested to hear how he was determined to be a "dishonest person" and all of the other things that were said.

If you guys are just speculating that since he has a beef with PSA or since he's filing a claim a big dollar card so he must be shady, I think your comments would have been better suited in a non-public forum such as direct e-mail.

People are pretty quick to assasinate someone's character on these boards (network 54 included). The unfortunate thing is that when people start slandering someone they've never met or done business with based on an assumption they've made, it makes it hard to believe the cases where someone really did get burned and really is trying give the rest of us a "heads up".

I'm not saying you guys are doing that, but I am asking you directly: Are you doing that?

-Ryan

z2345

Not doing that at all. Just looking at this as an objective observer.

1) The package was not insured.
2) The guy can't produce a submittal form.
3) PSA has a submittal form from this guy and there was no $6000 card.

You could draw your own conclusions. I have made up my mind based on the above.

curmudgeon

You're right as rain Ryan (always wondered what the he## that meant)

This board is full of judgmental people who think very little of attacking the integrity and honesty of those they do not know. As for z2345, he either refuses to or simply cannot understand a few basic facts:

1. The issue of no insurance was explained, ad nauseum, and others on this board have acknowledged that sending by signature confirmation is a relatively safe means of assuring that your package arrives at its destination. In fact, it did so arrive, and insurance would have made absolutely no difference.

2. Dan did in fact submit two separate forms, and can tell you the submission form numbers. (he even scanned in the postal confirmation slip and the form numbers, if you re-read the thread). He printed them off the Internet, as most of us do. He claims, and I believe, that the second form, which only covered the one card, was probably tossed out with with the card. This would explain why PSA claims to only have one submission form.

Ask yourself this, zknowitall: Why wouldn't Dan, if he really wanted to scam PSA, in fact send the package insured, and photocopy the second submission form to come up with what you consider to be the requisite proof? Had he done these things, he would still be in the same flippin boat, yet apparently, this would make all the difference to you.

No one seems to be troubled that this sort of thing apparently can happen, that PSA tells people it has cameras and yet for whatever reason there are no tapes of this incident. I guess its easier to just bash someone as a liar and a cheat. Hope that makes you feel better.

z2345

I understand the facts more clearly than you think I do. You are letting your friendship with McKee cloud your judgment.



<< <i>Dan did in fact submit two separate forms, and can tell you the submission form numbers. (he even scanned in the postal confirmation slip and the form numbers, if you re-read the thread). He printed them off the Internet, as most of us do. He claims, and I believe, that the second form, which only covered the one card, was probably tossed out with with the card. This would explain why PSA claims to only have one submission form. >>



This is bulls***. Anyone can say they slipped a NM-MT 1952 Mantle or a VG-EX T206 Magie in their package. Let's see some proof.

If the guy kept a photocopy of this submission form, my opinon might be different. If there was some postal insurance, my opinion might be different. If he had a buddy come out and say that he saw McKee place the card in the package, things may be different. If he had absolutely anything that would corroberate his story, my opinion might be different. As it stand, he has NOTHING in my opinon.

You formed your opinion blindly based on your friendship with McKee. I have formed my opinion based on what evidence he has produced. Don't tell me I am wrong. Neither of us can ever be one hundred percent sure, but I am confident that ninety-five percent of reasonable and objective minds out there would not agree with you.

In the end, who cares what I think or what his personal friends like you think. I would love to see McKee try to litigate this, so we can see whether twelve reasonable and objective minds believe him.

curmudgeon

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

I fear you suffer from anal-cranial inversion. I have never met Dan McKee, never had any dealings with him, and couldn't pick him out of a lineup. Thus, I am not his friend.

I do believe what others have said about him, that he has had several decades of collecting experience and is remarkably knowledgable. I also believe (and have stated elsewhere) that it is entirely likely that a minimum wage receiving clerk could have unwittingly tossed his card and submission form out with the packaging. I have not once accused anyone of stealing the card, and have not asserted anyone to be dishonest--contrast that to your perjorative rhetoric. For what it's worth, I would also be willing to bet that I knew more about cards twenty years ago than you know now.

I would agree with you on one point-- I too would love to see McKee file litigation. I believe his chances to be no less than 50-50, and my opinion is somewhat informed. If you truly believe that 95% of "reasonable and objective minds" would agree with your position on "the evidence", then I submit you should reassess such belief, and educate yourself on the law.

z2345

<< <i>I do believe what others have said about him, that he has had several decades of collecting experience and is remarkably knowledgable. >>



So because McKee is knowledgeable, he is honest and ethical?



<< <i>For what it's worth, I would also be willing to bet that I knew more about cards twenty years ago than you know now. >>



This is how you debate? You are a pompous idiot. What does this have to do with anything?

curmudgeon

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ (as in you're tiresome)

I will debate under any forum or in any manner you wish.

No, his knowledge does not impute honesty. I never said he was honest. Importantly, I never said he wasn't. You, on the other hand, repeatedly have called him both dishonest and a cheat.

I asked for answers on the so-called infallibile security system, with videotaping, and a control or checks and balances system that assures submitters that their cards have been properly received and processed. You have provided no repsonse as to why this should not be in place or was not in place in this case, or, if it was, why PSA hasnt' shown the details of what happened here. You simply sluff it off on a cheat.

As for card knowledge, yes, I do believe it relevant, just as I think an open mind and an understanding of all surrounding circumstances are helpful. You have repeatedly stated that your mind is made up, based on illogical "conclusions" that are essentially immaterial. Please, tell me again, er, for the first time, why it would have made any difference whether the package was insured or if he kept a photocopy of the submnission form. You stand at the PSA pulpit and decry cheat, liar and charlatan, as if you're some sort of flippin expert about anything. As an experienced collector, although far less so than McKee, I can tell you that reputation and one's word are critical in this hobby. It's not worth even a $6K hit to lose that, and while you have every right to express skepticism and doubt concerning his story, that gives you no right to call a man a cheat. You want pompous--examine your own remarks before spouting off at others.

z2345

Reread the posts you pompous idiot. Where in the posts did I defend PSA's infallible security system? What I am saying is that McKee's story does not add up.

Here is my reasoning behind the significance of postal insurance, tracking, and the photocopy of the submittal form:

Without these items, he has NOTHING.....


ABSOLUTELY NOTHING to corroberate his story.


What don't you understand you pompous idiot. Maybe more years of card collecting will help your comprehension skills. You may be an attorney, but you sound like a bumbling idiot if you take this guy for his word.

"As for card knowledge, yes, I do believe it relevant..."

You are a joke. I would hate to have you represent me for anything significant.

curmudgeon

ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZ

Not to worry, pinhead. Its abundantly clear you cannot formulate anything resembling a cogent
argument, so go grab your thesauraus and see if you can find any words bigger than pompous.
When you get a chance, have your buddies take a look at your valuable contributions to this topic.
Honestly, your ignorance is downright breathtaking.

uniship

This thread reminds me of the old glory days of this board.

VaYank

Hey, UniBrainCell....are you doing the fantasy football league again??

uniship

Hey "Va Yank One Dealer's Chain Blindly" - absolutely. The league will be formed next month.

ranch

<< <i>This thread reminds me of the old glory days of this board. >>



It sure does, Eric.

I miss those days...

koby

Reinstate Mike.