<< <i>Maybe the mint made 1917 Lincoln cent proof dies (and other denominations) in anticipation for 1917 proofs. When that was nixed, instead of wasting the dies, maybe they used them for regular production, accounting for the matte-like cents occasionally encountered. >>
The US Mint did not make proof dies for 1917. RWB (Roger Burdette) can probably site specific US Mint documents showing the end of the proof coin program in 1916. Steve
Info as requested. From Renaissance of American Coinage 1916-1921:
“Other collectors also wrote to the mint about proof coins. The questions were always the same: When will proofs be issued? Mint Bureau resources must have been stretched thin by having to issue three new designs, prepare for commemoratives, plus normal circulation pieces. Collector complaints and the additional burden of proof coin production pointed to the demise of collectors’ coins. On October 17, Philadelphia Mint Superintendent Adam Joyce effectively drove the last nail in the coffin of proof coins when he wrote to the director:
“ The issue of the silver coins of the new designs will complete the series of changes in the coin designs. The ground of all these designs is uneven, which makes it impossible to produce proof coins which are distinctive from the regular coins made on the coining presses from new dies, the only difference between the proofs and the regular coins being the sharper edge and design. Formerly the full set of proofs was made in January or February and orders filled when received, but since the manner of manufacturer and issuing the proofs has been changed so that some of the denominations may not be issued until late in the year (we are only allowed to make each denomination after the regular coins for circulation have been issued) great dissatisfaction has been shown by persons desiring these proofs and a seemingly unnecessary amount of correspondence entailed on this office, returning orders and answering complaints. In order to distinguish gold proofs from the regular issue, it has been necessary to give them a sandblast finish, which changes the appearance of the coins to such an extent that it is almost impossible to put them in circulation. This is something I am not sure we have a right to do. The extra charge for the silver and minor proof coins, 5¢, does not cover the cost of manufacture. I would, therefore, suggest for your consideration the advisability of ceasing the manufacture of proof coins.”
“It didn’t take von Engelken long to make a decision – the mint was losing money on each proof coin made, collectors were complaining, and paperwork had become a nuisance. Rather than look for ways to correct problems, the director decided to eliminate all proof coins. His terse order of October 18 ended nearly sixty years of continuous issuance of proofs for purchase by ordinary collectors. Across the spectrum of coin collectors, from railroad magnate Robert Garrett’s almost unlimited budget, to hobbyist Giles R. Anderson’s modest annual expense of 25¢ for two minor proof sets, the collectors’ coins were no more.
I am in receipt of your letter of October 17th. Effective at once, you will please discontinue the manufacture of proof coins.”
[Note: Excerpts of the letters by Joyce and von Engelken were first published by David W. Lange in the 2nd edition of his book on Mercury dimes.]
<< <i>Ask him if you can slab it. (No harm in asking.) If the "powers that be" say it's a matte proof, buy it. If he's got a problem with slabbing, end of story. >>
And if it does slab, you're looking at a 6-figure realised auction price! If a 69S DDO goes for that kind of money, just think what a 1917 MPL would bring!
Me at the Springfield coin show: 60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Im still interested in a 1910vdb matte proof Lincoln cent???
This goes in the same album as 1912 Buffalo nickel, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 Washington quarter, 1947 Franklin half and 1964 Franklin half and some other imaginary coins.
<< <i> Im still interested in a 1910vdb matte proof Lincoln cent???
This goes in the same album as 1912 Buffalo nickel, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 Washington quarter, 1947 Franklin half and 1964 Franklin half and some other imaginary coins. >>
I do have a 1910 matte proof Lincoln cent with traces of the VDB at the bottom of the reverse. Once I figure out this new Dino-Lite, I will post pix of it.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
yes virginia there is a santa claus .... and yes homerunhall there are 1917 matte proof bufalo nickels .... you may not like the fact that they exist but they do .... (1) 1917 matte proof 63 (cleaned) slabbed by segs (1998) and .... (2) 1917 matte proof 58 slabbed by segs (2002) .... also 1917 matte proof walking liberty half dollars exist .... and 1917 matte proof standing liberty quarters exist .... ((no 1917 matte proof mercury dimes are known to exist .... )) and 1 or perhaps 2 1917 matte proof lincoln cents exist .... you may not like this but, it is a fact. they do exist !!! you can cleanse this post again but this does not change the facts a 1917 matte proof walking liberty half dollar sold on ebay yesterday! blessings to all buffnixx
…and 1910-VDB cents.
Until examples of any of the above are authenticated by either NGC or PCGS, they are, to me at least, nothing more than fantasy. I’ve talked to quite a few collectors and dealers who claim to have seen or owned the above, or other things such as 1964 Franklin halves or 1964-D Peace dollars. In no instance has anyone come up with the “real McCoy.” If it cannot be independently verified, then it is just hot air. Regardless of claims that, “…it is a fact. they do exist !!!”
I will repeat an offer I made earlier, and for which there were no takers. Send any of the above coins to PCGS or NCG. If they are authenticated as “proofs” I will pay for authentication and shipping. To “sweeten the deal” I will also research and write a custom article about the coin and submit it to major hobby publications – free.
I don't know any serious Lincoln collector who believes in the 1917 MPL or the 1910 vdb MPL. I could be misinformed, but I think not.
There was an alleged 1910 vdb sold a few years back in a Central States auction I believe. To my knowledge, no one at the top of the MPL food chain would bid on it after viewing it in person. I didn't have the opportunity to see it in person, but talked to several who did.
I would think that there would be a few 1909 plains floating around with partial vdb's before I would believe a 1910 vdb. I'm not aware of any 1909 plains with partial VDB's on them either.
Nothing is for certain, but all indicators are that both are myths.
Comments
<< <i>Maybe the mint made 1917 Lincoln cent proof dies (and other denominations) in anticipation for 1917 proofs. When that was nixed, instead of wasting the dies, maybe they used them for regular production, accounting for the matte-like cents occasionally encountered. >>
The US Mint did not make proof dies for 1917. RWB (Roger Burdette) can probably site specific US Mint documents showing the end of the proof coin program in 1916.
Steve
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
“Other collectors also wrote to the mint about proof coins. The questions were always the same: When will proofs be issued? Mint Bureau resources must have been stretched thin by having to issue three new designs, prepare for commemoratives, plus normal circulation pieces. Collector complaints and the additional burden of proof coin production pointed to the demise of collectors’ coins. On October 17, Philadelphia Mint Superintendent Adam Joyce effectively drove the last nail in the coffin of proof coins when he wrote to the director:
“ The issue of the silver coins of the new designs will complete the series of changes in the coin designs. The ground of all these designs is uneven, which makes it impossible to produce proof coins which are distinctive from the regular coins made on the coining presses from new dies, the only difference between the proofs and the regular coins being the sharper edge and design.
Formerly the full set of proofs was made in January or February and orders filled when received, but since the manner of manufacturer and issuing the proofs has been changed so that some of the denominations may not be issued until late in the year (we are only allowed to make each denomination after the regular coins for circulation have been issued) great dissatisfaction has been shown by persons desiring these proofs and a seemingly unnecessary amount of correspondence entailed on this office, returning orders and answering complaints.
In order to distinguish gold proofs from the regular issue, it has been necessary to give them a sandblast finish, which changes the appearance of the coins to such an extent that it is almost impossible to put them in circulation. This is something I am not sure we have a right to do.
The extra charge for the silver and minor proof coins, 5¢, does not cover the cost of manufacture.
I would, therefore, suggest for your consideration the advisability of ceasing the manufacture of proof coins.”
“It didn’t take von Engelken long to make a decision – the mint was losing money on each proof coin made, collectors were complaining, and paperwork had become a nuisance. Rather than look for ways to correct problems, the director decided to eliminate all proof coins. His terse order of October 18 ended nearly sixty years of continuous issuance of proofs for purchase by ordinary collectors. Across the spectrum of coin collectors, from railroad magnate Robert Garrett’s almost unlimited budget, to hobbyist Giles R. Anderson’s modest annual expense of 25¢ for two minor proof sets, the collectors’ coins were no more.
I am in receipt of your letter of October 17th.
Effective at once, you will please discontinue the manufacture of proof coins.”
[Note: Excerpts of the letters by Joyce and von Engelken were first published by David W. Lange in the 2nd edition of his book on Mercury dimes.]
<< <i>Ask him if you can slab it. (No harm in asking.) If the "powers that be" say it's a matte proof, buy it. If he's got a problem with slabbing, end of story. >>
And if it does slab, you're looking at a 6-figure realised auction price! If a 69S DDO goes for that kind of money, just think what a 1917 MPL would bring!
60 years into this hobby and I'm still working on my Lincoln set!
Any info on this coin would be very cool...
This goes in the same album as 1912 Buffalo nickel, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 Washington quarter, 1947 Franklin half and 1964 Franklin half and some other imaginary coins.
<< <i> Im still interested in a 1910vdb matte proof Lincoln cent???
This goes in the same album as 1912 Buffalo nickel, 1931 Standing Liberty quarter, 1933 Washington quarter, 1947 Franklin half and 1964 Franklin half and some other imaginary coins. >>
I do have a 1910 matte proof Lincoln cent with traces of the VDB at the bottom of the reverse. Once I figure out this new Dino-Lite, I will post pix of it.
An authorized PCGS dealer, and a contributor to the Red Book.
and yes homerunhall there are 1917 matte proof bufalo nickels ....
you may not like the fact that they exist but they do ....
(1) 1917 matte proof 63 (cleaned) slabbed by segs (1998) and ....
(2) 1917 matte proof 58 slabbed by segs (2002) ....
also 1917 matte proof walking liberty half dollars exist ....
and 1917 matte proof standing liberty quarters exist ....
((no 1917 matte proof mercury dimes are known to exist .... ))
and 1 or perhaps 2 1917 matte proof lincoln cents exist ....
you may not like this but, it is a fact.
they do exist !!!
you can cleanse this post again but this does not change the facts
a 1917 matte proof walking liberty half dollar sold on ebay yesterday!
blessings to all
buffnixx
…and 1910-VDB cents.
Until examples of any of the above are authenticated by either NGC or PCGS, they are, to me at least, nothing more than fantasy. I’ve talked to quite a few collectors and dealers who claim to have seen or owned the above, or other things such as 1964 Franklin halves or 1964-D Peace dollars. In no instance has anyone come up with the “real McCoy.” If it cannot be independently verified, then it is just hot air. Regardless of claims that, “…it is a fact. they do exist !!!”
I will repeat an offer I made earlier, and for which there were no takers. Send any of the above coins to PCGS or NCG. If they are authenticated as “proofs” I will pay for authentication and shipping. To “sweeten the deal” I will also research and write a custom article about the coin and submit it to major hobby publications – free.
I think David Hall answered this question quite well in this previous thread.
There was an alleged 1910 vdb sold a few years back in a Central States auction I believe. To my knowledge, no one at the top of the MPL food chain would bid on it after viewing it in person. I didn't have the opportunity to see it in person, but talked to several who did.
I would think that there would be a few 1909 plains floating around with partial vdb's before I would believe a 1910 vdb. I'm not aware of any 1909 plains with partial VDB's on them either.
Nothing is for certain, but all indicators are that both are myths.