Enough Said
redcents
Posts: 734 ✭
I sold some coins to a major coin dealer at the Long Beach Show. 2 of them were cameo Lincoln Wheat proofs by a service other than PCGS. I had previously sent in those 2 coins to PCGS to get crossed over. Not only did they not cross, but PCGS's opinion was that NEITHER was even a cameo and they would only cross them as Red's AND a grade or 3 lower. Now I see that they are about to be auctioned - still in the same holders.
QUESTION: Do I have a moral or ethical obligation to warn - as best as I can via these message boards - potential buyers who may buy them with the intention of trying to get them crossed over to PCGS about this so they do not get burned or disappointed?
p.s. If they crossed they'd be pop 3/1 & 1/0. Past auction records for the first is about a 10k coin from a Heritage auction and the other went for about $900 in a grade lower (& a pop about 17 times higher).
I will take board members advice on this and spill the beans if the majority thinks I should. I know I was VERY disappointed when I was told they didn't cross although I basically sold them for break-even.
p.p.s If anyone thinks I have some type of obligation to who I sold them to to keep my mouth shut - PLEASE don't blast me for even considering warning potential buyers.
p.p.p.s I DID mention to the buyer (from me) that I was selling them because I couldn't get them to cross as I am ONLY interested in PCGS coins NOW.
Resolution: After all your comments - I'll keep my mouth shut. THANX!
QUESTION: Do I have a moral or ethical obligation to warn - as best as I can via these message boards - potential buyers who may buy them with the intention of trying to get them crossed over to PCGS about this so they do not get burned or disappointed?
p.s. If they crossed they'd be pop 3/1 & 1/0. Past auction records for the first is about a 10k coin from a Heritage auction and the other went for about $900 in a grade lower (& a pop about 17 times higher).
I will take board members advice on this and spill the beans if the majority thinks I should. I know I was VERY disappointed when I was told they didn't cross although I basically sold them for break-even.
p.p.s If anyone thinks I have some type of obligation to who I sold them to to keep my mouth shut - PLEASE don't blast me for even considering warning potential buyers.
p.p.p.s I DID mention to the buyer (from me) that I was selling them because I couldn't get them to cross as I am ONLY interested in PCGS coins NOW.
Resolution: After all your comments - I'll keep my mouth shut. THANX!
0
Comments
If they had crossed, what would your opinion be???
I would consider that as well.
Each buyer should use caveat emptor on any coin purchase. If someone told you the coin was a lock to cross and it didn't how would you feel? On the other hand if someone told you a coin was a downgrade how do you price the transaction?
The coin is the coin is the coin. As we all say, buy the coin not the holder no matter whose holder it is. As the market goes, the PCGS holder is valued more, but one day all these services will be gone and then it's back to the coin.
Ike Specialist
Finest Toned Ike I've Ever Seen, been looking since 1986
09/07/2006
peacockcoins
DO YOU BELIEVE THERE IS A DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE COMMENT "THE COIN DID NOT CROSS" and "THE COIN WAS SUBMITTED FOR CROSSOVER AND PCGS FELT IT WAS 3 GRADES LOWER AND NOT CAMEO"? If I was selling you a coin and simply said "the coin did not cross" and you then discovered the coin did not cross because PCGS felt it was 3 grades lower and not cameo, would you have honestly felt that I omitted important information to you?
We have having a serious discussion as to your desire to do what is right here. I am not attacking anything you did. I am simply asking you to comment on my question on the subject. This is an interesting situation
Wondercoin
As to your specific question: If you were selling me the coin AND you knew that it didn't cross on a prevoious attempt AND that PCGS felt it was not only NOT a cameo but that it was ALSO 3 grades lower and you didn't tell me (or if you just told me "it didn't cross) I think that witholding that kind of info is dishonest. It seems only the minority beleives in COMPLETE DISCLOSURE in the coin business. I guess not many are real estate brokers as well. THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I BELEIVE YOU WOULD DO THIS AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But simply my response to the hypothetical you proposed.
I hope this answers your question.
Dick
<< <i>Honestly, Mitch, I have NO intention of disparaging anyone. I genuinely simply felt, that given a somewhat unique <STRONG>NON-eBay</STRONG> related auction situation where I see a couple of coins being sold that I know something about that the potential buyer <STRONG>MIGHT</STRONG> find of interest, that I seek out opinions as to what the right thing to do is. I have no ability or intention to try to contact any potential buyers directly EXCEPT through these message boards - <STRONG>AND THEN ONLY IF THE CONSENSUS OF THOSE MORE EXPERIENCED IN THESE MATTERS THINKS IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DO (Yes I dare say it - I will DEFER to the more experienced and knowedgeable)</STRONG> - Not to say morality or ethics should necessarily be a majority decided thing.
As to your specific question: If you were selling me the coin AND you knew that it didn't cross on a prevoious attempt AND that PCGS felt it was not only NOT a cameo but that it was ALSO 3 grades lower and you didn't tell me (or if you just told me "it didn't cross) I think that witholding that kind of info is dishonest. It seems only the minority beleives in COMPLETE DISCLOSURE in the coin business. I guess not many are real estate brokers as well. <STRONG>THIS IS NOT TO SAY THAT I BELEIVE YOU WOULD DO THIS AT ALL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! But simply my response to the hypothetical you proposed.
</STRONG>I hope this answers your question<STRONG>.</STRONG> >>
You are free to state your opinions about any coin you sell. However, this is not your coin! Its none of your business now. Not only that, but there is no comparison between real estate and coins. In real estate there may be hidden liabilities that must legally be disclosed. With coins, you should know enough to judge for yourself with your own eyes whether there is a cameo etc. There is no way that a coin is hiding a leaky roof, is zoned improperly etc etc.
What is complete disclosure? Is it necessary to tell any potential buyer that you tried to sell the coin to X number of others, all of whom decided that it was too expensive, too ugly, too poorly graded etc? What is disclosure? You also seem to think that the PCGS grade is the God-given truth, rather than their opinion on its condition....
Your question and the subsequent discussion raises a number of issues. First, I am disclosing that I am still viewed as being rather new to the hobby from the standpoint of experience. Some may even view me as naive. However, I believe that if we desire a hobby that maintains integrity far above doing a deal and if we truly want to encourage new persons to join our hobby, I find it difficult to leave everything to the saying "buyer beware". There are far too many nuances in the hobby such that a new person would be able to avoid making a mistake and often a very costly one.
If it is not obvious, I believe in full transparency and disclosure. The only alternative would be to provide every collector with an encylopedia of the ways that they can be beat!
Casabrown, the naive one!
SOLICITED advice on the other hand is completely different. If another collector or dealer that you have reason to be helpful to asks you if you know anything about the coins feel free to share any and all information you have. IMPLIED solicitation is also just fine IMO...if I were to find out that YOU were pursuing a coin that I had prior negative knowledge about I would pick up the phone and let you know...but I would not do that if I did not already have prior experience sharing notes and information and a good working relationship with you.
I find it somewhat amusing that two of the participants in this thread have, in my experience, a personal definition of "full disclosure" that would put many dealers out of business if they were to adhere to the same standards.
BTW....CONGRATULATIONS redcents for the NEW #1 LINCOLN MEMORIAL WITH VARIETIES SET!
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
I agree in theory in full disclosure...but there are legal issues of interference involved here. The best we can all do is be as fair and honest as we can be and encourage everyone else we meet to do the same. There exists in this hobby and business a powerful old guard that has nothing to gain and much to lose from free sharing of information among the masses...but how does someone stop the dispersion of information when forums such as this exist? Enthusiasm and a strong sense of ethics are desired traits not nice names for naiveté and idealism.
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
But to clear up a few possible mis-assumptions (is that even a word?) read the following.
1). I never said I DID NOT pay a fair price based on what I bought.
2). I never said I felt cheated by the original seller.
3). Yes, I did sell both for a very small loss - about $50.
4). The buyer I sold it to who made the purchase SIGHT SEEN had all the info in front of him to make an informed purchase.
5). Based on auction records I got them for about 33% of the average they were going for and sold them for a tiny bit less than that.
6). I DID mention to the seller I was dumping them because I had hoped they would cross but didn't - HE didn't care.
7). One thing I should've added to my reply to Mitch was that I beleive that ONLY if a buyer SPECIFICALLY asks about any info the seller may have as to the history of the coin (RE: crossing, etc.) should the seller ABSOLUTELY divulge it - to not at that point would be to lie outright.
8). As 3 examples recently (in the last month) 3 dealers that I regularly deal with had coins I was interested in. I indicated to ALL of them my intention to try to get them to cross to PCGS. They all - with utmost integrity - each explained to me why these particular coins wouldn't cross. In 1 case PCGS had already rejected grading it for questionable color. In another case, the seller told me that it would cross 2 grades lower and lose a cameo designation (and this seller has NEVER been wrong on a raw grade with me yet), and in the last instance, the seller told me the coin got a wash with MS70 & was a 70%+ chance of not getting a grade at all.
I deeply respect and appreciate these people for their honesty and integrity. If I had not made the inquires I did I would have had no ill will if the same results were obtained as I know all 3 of them would have gladly taken them back anyway. Perhaps there's still some out there that think this info shouldn't have been divulged to me upon my inquiries.