evidence of trimming question

pool

I received some cards that are 'evidence of trimming'.
Does anyone know what 'evidence of trimming' looks like?
What specifically should I look for?

PSA could denote where on the card has the 'evidence of trimming'?
(left edge, right edge, all edges etc.) Good idea or bad idea?

dude

Pool,

I think it would be a good idea if they could tell you where on the card it is trimmed. I've seen some PSA people explain it to some people at shows when a card came back trimmed while doing On-Site Grading.

Regarding what it looks like, it's hard to say. It all depends on what was used to trim the card.

Southsider

When a card comes back "Evidence of Trimming" does PSA still charge the grading fee?

If so, then I think it would be only fair for them to provide a little information about how/where the card was trimmed to justify the "grading" of it, no?

mikeschmidt

It depends -- what if you have a card that is seriously "whacked", e.g. with trimming, coloring, corners rebuilt, etc. As far as PSA is concerned -- once it sees one trimmed edge, it rejects the card for "evidence of trimming". However, if they state what edge is trimmed -- others might (wrongly) believe that that is the only thing wrong with the card. Trimmed cards are sometimes known to have more than one problem with them. Yes, PSA does charge the fee -- but they do not justify their assessment any more than they point out why a card is an 8 but not a 9

Southsider

I guess that's a good point, but at least with the numbered grades there are some printed guidelines that "define" a certain grade. With trimming, it's just a yes/no type of decision. I guess the benefit would be for collectors to know what to look for, so they don't waste money on submitting trimmed cards. If PSA could say, evidence of trimming on bottom edge/ non-factory cut, then a collector could look at that edge and see what the graders saw that justified evidence of trimming.

FB

Also...

PSA will mark a cards "evidence of trimming" if it was cut from a sheet using newer technology than was available at the time the set came out. Todays laser technology sure beats the cutting presses of the 50's, 60's and 70's.

And no - no refund on trimmed cards. Yes - if it was a "miscut".

BobS

<< <i>Todays laser technology sure beats the cutting presses of the 50's, 60's and 70's >>



I have heard this over and over. Is it really true? Does anyone know for a fact that cards are cut these days with "lasers"? Maybe I'm being really ignorant here, or just plain not-in-the-know.

pool

My real problem is that the cards deemed 'trimmed' were broken out of GAI holders.
Now I have 'trimmmed' cards according to PSA and but OK cards according to GAI.
One of the grading companies is wrong, and I'm out of luck.
I look at the edges (under 10x) and they look the same to my uneducated eyes
but of course I don't know what to look for. I know that the edges would all look the same if
all the edges were trimmed.
I think? I once got back a card that was recolored and the card in the cardsaver
and the corner that was recolored was circled with a marker.
Do you think when the grader spots the 'evidence of trimming', he/she could put the card
into the cardsaver and make an indication of which edge(s) caused the problem?

mikeschmidt

BobS:

Whether or not lasers are used, I know not. Nonetheless, I can say without hesitation that in the past four years, numerous individuals have been cutting up numerous sheets with much more advanced technology than used contemporaneously by the manufacturer. The best example is the O-Pee-Chee sheets that were cut in the 1970s with needles (and thread?) run through the width of the sheet.

mikeschmidt

Pool:

Unfortunately when cracking a holder, you a taking a risk of what has happened to you. Every major grading company now offers a cross-over service that allows you to maintain a card in its original holder -- if it does not cross over to your desired grade (for whatever reason), you get the card back in its original holder.

JeffVN

I agree that the cross-over service eliminates a lot of risk for the submitting person - when it comes to minimum size or evidence of trimming. I've sent many a card to PSA for grading that I personally took from the 1999 Bowman Chrome foil pack and had them returned evidence of trimming. It was explained to me by PSA Customer Service that this is sometimes the "tag" attached to a below minimum size card.

mikeschmidt

<<It was explained to me by PSA Customer Service that this is sometimes the "tag" attached to a below minimum size card. >>

Hmm -- that shouldn't be that way. I often get cards back with "mini size req" for the very same thing -- but I get a grading refund in those instances. I should just measure the cards before I send them -- but I don't -- I just eyeball them.

FB

Bob S,

I'm with Mark on this... maybe its lasers or just much better steel on the cutting blades - not really sure... But, the cutting technology of today is much better than it was years ago and somehow, PSA can tell the difference.

pool

From the replies I conclude:
If lasers were used, I personally (nor anyone else?) can tell if the card was trimmed because I don't know anything about laser cutting.
People have taken cards straight from packs and those cards have come back 'trimmed'
Is it possible that PSA may not have it correct?

I would like to see PSA provide scans of 'evidence of trimming' on the website so that I know what to look for. If 'evidence of trimming' is a black/white issue, then defining it or show it should be simple.
If 'evidence of trimming' is a tougher call, then maybe sometimes they get it wrong and should have a re-evaluate service (re-evaluate really means no cost).

FB

pool,

I'm not sure that the really subtle examples of "evidence of trimming" would be detectable from a scan if PSA did put an example on their website. Heck, I've had trouble seeing it with a loop when I've received cards back!

I'm betting that PSA has several guidelines that they follow in order to label a card as "trimmed".

Are they always correct? No - since they didn't follow the card from Topps to every stop along the way, there is no way that they can be... But, there are probably some differences between a trim cut and a factory cut. And based upon their experience, they make a judgement call as to whether its trimmed or just an undersized card.

Here is a link to another thread talking about the same subject:

Trimmed Kellogg's

Hope this helps...

pool

FB,
"there are probably some differences between a trim cut and a factory cut. And based upon their experience, they make a judgement call as to whether its trimmed or just an undersized card."

What are the differences between a trim cut and a factory cut?
This is my point. It is my guess that some of the board members have gotten 'evidence trim' cards but no one can identify the 'evidence'.
When I get a card graded whatever, I can usually reason out the grade, usually it's the corners, sometimes it's a wrinkle.
I would like to take my worthless trimmed cards and look at them and say 'oh yeah, there the trim, I'm a dummy again,
as usual'. I just would like to see and acknowledge the 'evidence of trimming'.

boggs301012

I ask for psa to put up info on their web site. I was told it was a good idea and they would look into it.

My idea was show us known examples of cards with all the defects and qualifiers PSA has and to show us some examples of fake cards ...etc...................2 years later....................nada. And I ask them to show us all the holder styles the have used and the dates they were implemented.



James

Wabittwax

I think it is very important that PSA not return your grading fee for trimmed cards. Otherwise people would just keep resubmitting the same card until it makes it and then you will have tons of trimmed cards in PSA holders.

mikeschmidt

Pool and others:

Trimming often cannot be verified or shown accurately by scans -- especially scans as the way you typically might think of a card.

I searching for trimming, here are my four main criteria:

A) Measure the card. If the card is significantly shorter than factory specifications, there is a potential for a problem. If it measures fine, or only slightly shorter, the possibility still exists. But sometimes you get a card that is 1/8" short all the ways around. See PRO-graded cards for examples. These you can identify as trimmed on sight.

Make sure that the edges are completely parallel to each other. Believe it or not, people are not always the most careful when they trim a card. The end result is that the card looks like it has a "tilt" to it, when in fact one edge is completely straight, and the opposite edge was cut unevenly.

C) EXAMINE CARD EDGES UNDER 10X LOUPE. If you want to see what a trimmed card looks like, do you own little $50 experiment. Buy a vintage pack of 1975 - 1979 O-Pee-Chee cards. Then purchase one of the sheet-cut, BVG graded OPC cards that are currently on the market. Purchase one that only grades out at BVG 8, or BVG 8.5 to save yourself some money. Now, open the pack and open the BVG holder. Examine each card's edges under the 10x loupe. This will tell you something.

D) Finally, look for tell-tale signs like "bat ears" Lie the card flat on a flat, level surface. If the four corners of the card all are pointing up, or the edges of the card have a "ripple" effect and do not lie flat on the surface, this is another indication of trimming. I can show you this on quite a few of the "interesting" BVG Mike Schmidt cards that I keep in my collection as learning tools.


Unfortunately, I sometimes lose my patience with posts like these. At the end of the day, if you are going to spend serious $$$ in this hobby, educate yourself, and do not trust PSA, SGC or any other grading company implicity. If you can't tell a trimmed card -- then why bother spending hundreds on cards?

Trim some cards yourself -- buy a $5 wax box of 1989 Topps and trim up some cards through a variety of different methods and see if you can eventually tell the "signs" of trimming. Purchase some already trimmed cards, or some PRO graded cards. Learn what to look for. If you can't learn these signs for yourself, you will eventually get scammed somewhere down the line. Unfortunately, since trimming is such a subtle art, I do not know of any good way to "teach" someone trimming through scans over the Internet. If you want to stop by, I'll gladly show you some trimmed cards -- including some that seem to have slipped by professional graders.

Finally, as a note to PSA, just remember that they cannot always be perfect in their grading. As a collector, I would say that I would rather have them reject authentic unaltered cards as trimmed than have them put trimmed cards in holders. I think that this is the goal they strive for -- and this unfortunately means that sometimes YOU will get cards straight-from-packs coming back to you rejected. PSA is not a perfect entity, and grading has subjectivity included in it. As long as they do not reject too many authentic unaltered cards, I am not presently concerned with their grading process.

Southsider

Thanks for the tips. I think I will try some of what you suggest so that I can educate myself on trimmed cards.

As far as knowing whether or not a card measures up to the standard size, where do you find information on the card measurements by year and manufacturer?

mikeschmidt

The Sports Collectors Digest Big book -- or really any published book of baseball cards (e.g. guides with checklists, prices, etc.) usually has this information. You can probably pick up a dated example really cheap on Ebay, or at a book sale, etc.

pool

Mike,
Some 'presentation' cards are legitimately undersized.
I obviously now have trimmed cards and I have non-trimmed cards and
I will look for your suggestions.

I think your very, very valid point is that PSA does not want to encapsulate a trimmed card.
So a lot of legitimate cards will be rejected to err on the 'safe' side. This is why I think PSA will never
indicate where the 'trim' is because there might not be a 'trim', the card might be in the grey area.
I agreed, PSA should not encapsulate a trimmed card. If I have to take a hit on a couple of cards
to protect the rest of the collection, so be it.
Thank you

coinbyur

I must be a moron. Please help me. Why would it be wrong to cut a card to it's factory specifications if it is not the size it is supposed to be? If its oversized, cutting it to factory specs is not wrong & such a card should not be considered altered - but corrected. The 1 who cut it to it's correct specs (with skill, precision & diligent care) should be thanked not belittled, slandered, insulted or shunned. There are - what I would term "radical purist", that don't use facts & evidence to make their judgments about things, but instead use a "follow the rules regardless" approach. Even if the rules are unreasonable, irrational, unsound, absurd, ridiculous, ludicrous & the most accurate word of all would be "UNTENABLE" which means "not able to be defended". They do not "think". Instead they blindly follow a rule, a rule that has no basis in reality. No one knows where this rule came from, it certainly it didn't come from a human mind interested in exercising sound judgment. (if you know where this rule came from please inform me - I beg you). If I found a genuine 1952 Topps Mickey Mantel card that was 2 7/8 x 4 inches (& not the correct 1952 Topps factory specifications of 2 5/8 x 3 3/4) where the other adjacent card portions could be partly seen, I would without hesitation cut it to correct factory specs. I want someone to explain - with plain reason & common sense - why such a card should not be designated a Gem Mint 10 if it has no print imperfections, extraordinary color, 50/50 centering, shows no surface abrasion or indentations of any kind, has perfect focus & completely in register printing, 4 perfect corners & edges & original surface sheen. Why? Why should it not be thusly graded? I have no problem with a rule that says "if a card has been cut to specs by an individual & not at the factory that the seller should inform a buyer of that". In fact I would do just that in the above cited scenario, I would probably keep a record of it, with witnesses, signed documents, photos etc. I also have no problem with "pressing" out or "rolling" out dinged corners. If they are not pressed out they will become worse. Its a matter of preservation not deception. Again any buyer could/should be informed. I have a set of 1993 Topps Finest baseball cards that are badly curved I know how to make them perfectly flat again without causing them any damage, is that a baseball card crime? I would be glad to tell any prospective buyer that I flattened them, but what purpose would telling them serve? There is no way that anyone could tell that I flatten them or that they were ever curved. A card dealer told me a story of someone who found very well preserved full sheets of 1957 Topps BB cards (I never learned how it all turned out). They had a number of Frank Robison RC's. Could the man who found them cut out the FR RC's making perfectly even jumbo borders? (Jumbo bordered cards are worth more) doing so would sacrifice some of the adjacent cards. Could he take the sheets to Topps & ask them to help him cut them into perfectly centered individual cards on their equipment or would he have to keep them in sheet form? Would cutting them in this way be immoral or make the cards worth less because they weren't cut at the factory in 1957? Would he have to tell any buyers all that he did? I would give the history if it were me (especially if I did the jumbos - which I probably wouldn't do) but in this particular case I don't believe it would be necessary. I wouldn't care if didn't tell me. Is there any empirical way to ascertain that the cards weren't cut at the factory in 1957? Maybe. With very strong - even microscopic magnification and/or careful scientific analysis which would have to have to take place very soon after the cards were cut. Another question is how did jumbo bordered cards ever come into being in the 1st place? I'd have to do some research, but I'm sure that some at least were created, not accidently - but on purpose, for monetary reasons, by those who had access to the sheets. In 1957 it wouldn't be like it is today, taking some out the back door would have been easier & I'm sure it would have been easy for higher ranking employees to get some with out even hiding it - even with permission. The same kind of irrationality prevails in the coin collecting hobby. If you "clean" a coin, your a "coin doctor" an immoral fraudster out to bilk people out of their money. Why would it be immoral to remove foreign matter from the surface of a coin especially if it could be done without abrading, acid etching it's surface or in any other way altering it. Doing so with with skill, precision & diligent care. If any harmful alteration did occur, unavoidably or inadvertently any buyer should be informed. I have removed foreign matter from coins & they not only have not been harmed but greatly improved. Moved from not worthy of collecting to being beautiful specimens people are proud to display in their collection. Who wants a gunked up coin whose beauty is concealed by... gunk. THINK about this. You can think cant you? Can you reevaluate? We all can if we try. Or we can continue to blindly follow rules whose source we are completely ignorant of. May God have mercy! Thank you for letting me share.

picklepete

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