Rick- How many different Liberty nickel patterns would it take to make a complete set? Are there more Shield nickel patterns or Liberty nickel patterns?
I believe there are 47 Lib Nickel patterns, including one and three cent versions, 41 without. However, you'll never build a set, as J1718 is believed unique, and is in a private collection. However, if you have the money of Bill Gates and are young, you have a shot. As for the shield nickels, there are over 70, if you include various mules, and many unique pieces.
"I believe there are 47 Lib Nickel patterns, including one and three cent versions, 41 without. However, you'll never build a set, as J1718 is believed unique, and is in a private collection. However, if you have the money of Bill Gates and are young, you have a shot. As for the shield nickels, there are over 70, if you include various mules, and many unique pieces."
Rick: What do you think the chances are that if someone had the money of Bill Gates AND was young, they would be pursuing 110+ pattern nickels? I know what I'd be doing Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Michael- Do you happen to have the Judd numbers for those 3 patterns? I would love to hear more of the story. When and how they were acquired etc. It does point out that there are still great coins out there that are unaccounted for in the pop reports!
Rick, if you could use your pull to convince the Smithsonian to sell me those 1891 Transitional Barbers I'd be very appreciative. Too bad about the repeated cleanings though.
Up until now at least they have not been widely collected, causing many to hesitate to spend big bucks on ill-liquid coins. You go to a local coin show and that is all you hear from the dealers.
That's partly because they don't want you to search for inventory they can't get or don't have.
How about you big time pattern dealers - how illiquid are patterns??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
I don't know any big time pattern dealers, so I'll try to answer. Some patterns are relatively illiquid, such as many standard silvers and some coronet types, especially in mid-level, 62/63 grades. Others are extremely liquid, such as the scorching hot 1877 halves, metric dollars and IHC and FE cent patterns. I see more and more dealers, who have never previously stocked patterns, stocking several now. Patterns are very liquid if the right ones are bought.
Tim: As a collector of patterns, what I find interesting is the extent the dealers must resort to auction consignment after auction consignment to sell misc. patterns - much more than regular issue coins IMHO. Also, the fact is some dealers simply don't want to write the check for coins offered to them, but rather seek consignment or other deals involving no money changing hands. This was my experience recently involving a very high R7 (non-nickel)pattern (just 2 slabbed by P&N) worth $5k+ wholesale. Instead of simply getting offered a quick and easy check, I was offered misc. consignment deals. I will simply consign the coin to an auction at FUN. Liquidity is certainly an issue with patterns I believe and I know that going in
But, there is also a chance prices could move up sharply if the patterns get more liquid due to the entry of many more collectors.
Wondercoin
P.S. The non-liquid nature of the patterns really doesn't bother me very much as I do plan on building a nice collection over many years and have no strong desire to sell them anyway. But, in my case, the patterns must be purchased as part of a diversified purchasing portfolio, because of a variety of factors, one of which being their generally poor liquidity vis a vis other coin series/types.
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
Thanks for the info. If the dealer whips out a check book, the asking price is probably too low??
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
>>"what I find interesting is the extent the dealers must resort to auction consignment after auction consignment to sell misc. patterns"<<
I disagree. I can think of one dealer who regularly consigns, and he sells a lot more than he consigns. As well, many pattern deals are made without a tremendous amount of hoopla. Often, a dealer will make a large pattern purchase and quickly place most of the coins without the coins hitting their website. People who do not deal in patterns will frequently miss these deals entirely. Oftentimes, the patterns that the dealer consigns to auction are leftovers from those deals. Also, for dealers without tremendous financial backing (such as myself), auctions are a quick and easy way to raise capital for other patterns which that dealer considers more desireable at that time. I recently consigned several pieces to make sure I was ready to buy heavily at the ANA. I bought and sold many patterns, and not even one transaction involved a trade in any way.
>>"But, there is also a chance prices could move up sharply if the patterns get more liquid due to the entry of many more collectors."<<
True. There are a few new players, and demand will be high for certain rarities. Also, the phrase "many more collectors" is a relative term. It only takes ten serious new collectors to drive the pattern market wild.
Rick, You timed your entry into the pattern specialty dealer role perfectly. Of course, I might say you are responsible for the upsurge in interest. Despite being pleased for your apparent success, I liked the old days when there might be only a couple of bidders for a R7 + specimen in a major auction. C'est la vie.
Rick- I like your answer. You seem to have a handle on the liquidity question.
IMO patterns are not unlike their regular issue bretheren when it comes to liquidity. Some pattern series are wildly popular and sell quickly others go begging.
Tim- as a fellow flying eagle/indian cent pattern collector (and your frequent underbidder) I think we both know about the liquidity of this segment of the pattern market!
Your Eliasberg patterns are liquid - send them NOW!
"My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
I collect patterns but didn't open this thread till now because mostly I'm a frustrated pattern collector. Modern patterns tend to be excessively rare (like the older ones are common). There are a few moderns which are actually pretty common, but I can't even seem to run into one of them.
There are some European and other dark side patterns that are easier. Some of these were even packaged and sold to collectors.
Perhaps there is a way to have a registry for items that tend to be very rare to quite scarce, and usually in good shape; Just compare the numbers a collector has in the category whet- her it's nickels, halfs, or the complete set. A similar thing would work on items which are not so dependent on grading like good for tokens.
Comments
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Rick: What do you think the chances are that if someone had the money of Bill Gates AND was young, they would be pursuing 110+ pattern nickels?
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
bruce scher
Wondercoin
09/07/2006
Bruce, PM me if you want numbers on pattern 3 cent nickels and silvers and anything else. Rick
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
Wondercoin
<< <i>GLAD YOU STARTED THIS TREAD RICK >>
YEAH, AND I'M GLAD IT WAS BUMPED AFTER TWO MONTHS. OTHERWISE I WOULD HAVE MISSED IT.
Russ, NCNE
We'll use our hands and hearts and if we must we'll use our heads.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
How about you big time pattern dealers - how illiquid are patterns??
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
But, there is also a chance prices could move up sharply if the patterns get more liquid due to the entry of many more collectors.
Wondercoin
P.S. The non-liquid nature of the patterns really doesn't bother me very much as I do plan on building a nice collection over many years and have no strong desire to sell them anyway. But, in my case, the patterns must be purchased as part of a diversified purchasing portfolio, because of a variety of factors, one of which being their generally poor liquidity vis a vis other coin series/types.
I disagree. I can think of one dealer who regularly consigns, and he sells a lot more than he consigns. As well, many pattern deals are made without a tremendous amount of hoopla. Often, a dealer will make a large pattern purchase and quickly place most of the coins without the coins hitting their website. People who do not deal in patterns will frequently miss these deals entirely. Oftentimes, the patterns that the dealer consigns to auction are leftovers from those deals. Also, for dealers without tremendous financial backing (such as myself), auctions are a quick and easy way to raise capital for other patterns which that dealer considers more desireable at that time. I recently consigned several pieces to make sure I was ready to buy heavily at the ANA. I bought and sold many patterns, and not even one transaction involved a trade in any way.
>>"But, there is also a chance prices could move up sharply if the patterns get more liquid due to the entry of many more collectors."<<
True. There are a few new players, and demand will be high for certain rarities. Also, the phrase "many more collectors" is a relative term. It only takes ten serious new collectors to drive the pattern market wild.
Specializing in 1854 and 1855 large FE patterns
<
You timed your entry into the pattern specialty dealer role perfectly. Of course, I might say you are responsible for the upsurge in interest.
Despite being pleased for your apparent success, I liked the old days when there might be only a couple of bidders for a R7 + specimen in a major auction. C'est la vie.
IMO patterns are not unlike their regular issue bretheren when it comes to liquidity. Some pattern series are wildly popular and sell quickly others go begging.
Tim- as a fellow flying eagle/indian cent pattern collector (and your frequent underbidder
pattern collector. Modern patterns tend to be excessively rare (like the older ones are
common). There are a few moderns which are actually pretty common, but I can't even
seem to run into one of them.
There are some European and other dark side patterns that are easier. Some of these
were even packaged and sold to collectors.
Perhaps there is a way to have a registry for items that tend to be very rare to quite scarce,
and usually in good shape; Just compare the numbers a collector has in the category whet-
her it's nickels, halfs, or the complete set. A similar thing would work on items which are not
so dependent on grading like good for tokens.