Thread from Network 54

mrc32

I thought some people on the PSA board might find this thread on the Network 54 board of interest. The author claims that a T-206 card of his worth $6,000 was lost during the unpacking process at PSA. He is very upset as most would be...

Link to Network 54

Mantlefan

I always thought that you could not combine different submisssions in the same box. After all, you must write the service type on the outside of your box.

This is an unfortunate situation, but I don't think there's any recourse. It's his word that he sent the card vs. PSA who says it never arrived.

GATOR5

Frank,

I've alway been told and do that you can send in different subs in the same box
but then have to have individual boxes labeled.

Tipem

Very interesting reading.When you go to the "print a submission form" section on PSA's web site,the 3rd line states,"do not forget to photocopy this submission form for your records". I wonder if this guy has any proof that he sent this card in.I think that I would have some kind of copy of my submission form with a 6K card that I sent to PSA.Maybe he has a receipt showing how much insurance that he put on the card from the USPS.
It certainly will be interesting to see how certain PSA bashers take this story and run with it.I wonder how much mileage this gets.Anyone want to come up with an over and under on this story being discussed on the floor at the national??
Zardoz ?? You are the preeminent oddsmaker around here. What do you think??

On a more serious note,I hope that this is not a real problem.Anyone can make a mistake. I am sure that PSA will make good on this if they perceive a problem.


Vic

Bingo33

Very interesting discussion. I don't think this could or would happen with pSA or any of the other companies.

What t206 card was stolen? Does it say? I saw a scan of a off grade magee card.

mrc32

That was the card

Ullr

I usually recycle used boxes when I submit cards for grading. Because of this I wrap the box with brown paper (grocery bag most of the time), and use quite a bit of tape. As a result it would be impossible to get into my submission without destroying all of the postage, insurance, and return confirmation stickers. Is it possible this guy used a box that a postal employee could get into (after seeing the massive insurance on the package) take the high $$$ card? Then reseal the box and send it on its way to PSA. This seems possible to me. I trust PSA and this guy seems legit. That leaves the USPS unaccountable.
Also I don't collect t206 cards, but is that card really worth $6000 it looks a little worse for wear and tear.

bosoxphan

Bad situation for all involved. I believe the guy that he sent it, but if he has no proof, how can he expect to recover. The execs at PSA feel they did not receive the card and I believe them as well, I don't think they're intentionally trying to run off with his Magee. There are many scenarios of what might have become of it. If PSA pays off without some proof it was sent, they're setting themselves up for some big time extortion attempts down the road.

33Goudey

It's not a Magee card, nor a Maggie card, but it is a Magie card. A very rare error in the t206 set, as it was quickly corrected by the manufacturer. It's the 4th most valuable card in the set after Wagner, Plank and the Doyle (Nat'l) error cards.

koby

The guy sounds like he is not trying to rip off PSA or the Postal Service. He is in a tough position though. Without proof, it will be near impossible for him to get any recovery from either. PSA says they did not receive it so they certaily are not going to reimburse him. The package arrived to its destination so USPS is not likely to pay on this claim. Sounds like he is out of luck on this one.

cakeman

Koby,

I mostly agree, but I do not think that the seller has run out of options here. If the Postal Service successfully delivered the package and PSA is claiming that some of the contents were missing, would this not be a situation where the sender could allege postal fraud and file a claim which the Postal Service would then investigate?

Buckwheat

It would seem to me that PSA might have some liability here, based on the presentation as presented.
The Post Office has to have people sign for packages every step of the way for registered mail. I would think that if a highly insured package arrived at PSA, and they didn't find cards that justified the insurance, a red flag would immediately go up. It would seem that with a USPS receipt showing a package worth $6000 to sent PSA, and they only entered a small amount of material from it without any notification the sender immediately, that they would be liable. If the material was not there, then they should have notified the sender and the Post Office immediately. Failure to do so would certainly seem to make them liable. This assumes of course that the card was sent registered and insured for $6000.

Virtualizard

Buckwheat,

I believe that when you receive an insured package via USPS, whether it's registered, first class, priority, etc., the recipient does not know the dollar value that the package was insured for. In this case, PSA received a package that was sent with insurance and that's all that they knew when the package was opened - it could have been insured for $100 or $100,000.

By the way, I have not heard anyone mention anything about 2 separate submission forms (either here or on the Network 54 board). If two separate submissions were made in one package, what happened to the 2nd submission form? I can't see someone at PSA opening the package and accidentally discarding both the card and submission form from one of the submissions, but the other one is entered into the grading process in its entirety - that's too much of a coincidence. Assuming both submissions were in the package, the only conclusion that I can come to is that someone removed both the card and submission form somewhere between Dan's Post Office and PSA. Please note that I have made many assumptions and imply no guilt on any party involved. I'm just putting the facts out there as I see them at this point in the discussion.

JEB.

waitilltheytrytosell

I'd be curious to see how the grading was paid for. Was a check enclosed for the two invoices or was a credit card used? PSA is good at catching accounting discrepancies and probably would have questioned a check for an improper amount - high or low.

ranch

This whole situation doesn't really make any sense. Either this guy(Dan McKee) is lying through his teeth or PSA screwed up big-time. But first think about it folks, this guy sent PSA the total of 26 T206 cards with two separate submission forms, all packed in one box. PSA received 25 of his T206 cards except for his rare $6,000 "Magie" card as well as the submission form for that card? Doesn't that sound fishy to you? So in other words, PSA left that one card in the box?

Even Helen Keller would have never committed a mistake like that! Though she was blind and deaf!

crazysc

My gut feeling tells me, from my own experiences with PSA as well as the reputation I've seen of Dan McKee (I think my company has dealt with him as well) - I don't think either entity is trying to defraud the other. Seems one of three things probably happened:

1) The card was somehow removed before arriving at PSA

2) The card was received by PSA and an employee took it

3) The card was not seen upon receipt and was discarded along with the other trash

I really can't guess, without knowing how the cards were packaged. I've submitted more than anyone, and NEVER had them lose any cards, though I'm obviously very familiar on how to properly submit cards...

And that's the question - what happened to the invoice and payment for the Magie? Was the card simply is a card saver 1? Double boxed?

Edited: I should point out I don't think or mean to imply that a PSA employee would ever take something, just that is it a possibility. I know PSA has many security safeguards to keep this from happening, and simply that in 12 years of grading, we've heard very few stories like this, I think they do a great job on it.

koby

The guy sounds honest but if PSA pays this guy based on nothing more than his word, this will open the floodgate for all the scam artists out there to ask PSA about the whereabouts of their 1952 Mantle cards and 1933 Babe Ruth cards.

qualitycards

I like WAITTILS point, as PSA has never been shy to contact me letting me know my shipping figure was too low when I tried to combine orders. (I try to have diff invoices shipped together, PSA says no if its diff price levels) - So PSA would notice his higher payment for an additional card and obvious higher insurance fee and instantly notify the submitter via phone that it didn't add up...jay

dude

I believe that when you receive an insured package via USPS, whether it's registered, first class, priority, etc., the recipient does not know the dollar value that the package was insured for. In this case, PSA received a package that was sent with insurance and that's all that they knew when the package was opened - it could have been insured for $100 or $100,000.

Actually, one can determine the approximate insured value of a package. If you weigh it and know what service was used, you can determine the shipping rate by using this website: Shipping Rates Link

Subtract that rate from the total cost on the package, and you can determine the range of insurance used. Insurance Rates Link

I just skimmed the Network54 thread and didn't pick up what type of mail service was used and for how much it was insured. If it was a registered package, it's pretty safe to say the postal service was not involved. If it was sent non-registered, I wouldn't rule out the USPS. The way a non-registered parcel and a registered parcel are handled are worlds apart. This is worth mentioning since a postal worker can see a small, insured, non-registered package with a high price on the sticker and know very quickly that its something very valuable and the worker could tamper with it.

Tipem

As a Postal worker of 25 years,I can safely say that a registered package would have been obviously noticeable if it had been opened.I have handled literally thousands of them.I have heard of a few instances in which a registered package has been lost but never of one in which a registered package has arrived without contents or partial contents.My money is on the card being discarded with the trash as the most believable explanation if the sender is an honest guy.There is just as much liability with being caught opening a registered package as there is with stealing the whole package,so why not just take the whole package.Also,registered packages have to be signed for by every person handling them,so there is a traceable trail to follow.


Vic

BOTN

Buckwheat (Rob),

You wrote on another thread on the CU Forum in reference to this one that

<< <i>A guy evidently sent a $6000 card with some others in one box without insurance and not registered, and PSA says they never got the card, though they received the first submission in the box. >>


How do you know this? Unless I have not read the Vintage 54 Board correctly, Dan never stated that it was not insured or registered. Certainly adds a different spin. In fact on May 29, 2003 at 9:33 AM Dan went as far to say If I ever ship anything with no insurance and it doesn't arrive to its destination, then that is on me as the shipper.

Thanks,
Greg

BigKidAtHeart

Postal Insurance did not factor into this situation
as it did not get lost or damagaed or tampered with
in the delivery process. His beef is with PSA and the
possibility that one of the graders or handlers stole
the card in question upon opening the box. Yet PSA
argues that the card was not there. Neither is provable.
so neither will make another move, most likely, but
there is nothing in this senario that would have involved
any postal insurance (no matter what carrier he used
and or how it was insured or not.)

Buckwheat

BKAH- How can you know that it wasn't tampered with. How hard is it to open a box and reseal it? Postal employees know what is in boxes destined for PSA. They also know that if is not insured, there won't be any claim against the PO. And how closely will PSA inspect a box? Certainly not closely enough to know that it wasn't opened and reclosed. But, if I have 6000 of insurance on a box, and the receiver says they never received the merchandise, then I have a valid claim against the Post Office. Also, if the box is insured with $60 of postage, or $30 of registered mail postage, then if I receive it, I am going to make sure that the contents justify this, or notify the shipper immediately. Plus I am not going to destroy the box. IF a package comes in uninsured, then I am not expecting to find anything worthwhile, so I won't question anything at all.

If I am a dishonest PSA employee, I think I could get away with stealing a card from an uninsured box much easier than from a registered or insured box. I know that there won't be a postal investigation, and I also know that it is unlikely that management is going to accuse me in this situation. With a $6000 claim, then I expect that people will accuse me, so I am less likely to steal it.

If it is just sloppiness in opening the package, and the card was discarded accidently, that is much less likely to happen in an insured box, as noted above.

So I think that insurance makes a lot of difference here.

BOTN

BKAH

If you read the Forum 54 thread then you will know that I have been contributing and trying to assist Dan and PSA and have posted there numerous times regarding this matter. I am well aware that this is most likely not a situation that involves the Post Office but if I had a package that was really worth 6K+ I would never think to send it by way of any carrier without fully insuring it. Theft or damage is more likely to occur while in transit to PSA then when the package is at PSA. I do not know Dan, other than from what others have told me of him but I would question the motives or rationale behind someone who would send valuables that way. Did he also decline the insurance on the return shipping?

As Buckwheat stated if a Postal Worker (most likely in Newport Beach) sees a package going to PSA's PO Box and KNOWS that there is no insurance how long would it take to open the box and reseal it without being seen? Not long. Once PSA gets a box that shows no evidence of having been tampered with, are they supposed to call the submitter and ask him to give an exact description on how he prepared the box for shipping to confirm that it was not resealed? If Dan is telling the trusth and I have no reason not to believe him, then Postal Fraud cannot be ruled out in this instance.

The burden of proof is probably going to end up with Dan if he did not insure it and does not have "proof" that the Magie card was really inside of the package. He has a submission number and a scan of the card but that does not mean much. If there was an absence of insurance on the package there becomes an implied lack of accountability.

murcerfan

I know this guy from having transacted on some "advanced" cards.
It seems unlikely for someone into the hobby "at that level" to pull a stunt like filing a false claim on PSA. He would certainly have realized the "no win" situation he would create for himself; ie, the one he is now in.

z2345

Very interesting reading. Let me get this straight: This guy wants PSA or the post office to reimburse him for a package that he failed to insured? Then he writes that he does not respect Joe Orlando or Peter Ma because that question the veracity of his story? Now he wants to write in article in different publications about PSA's failure to take care of him. What a joke!!!

z2345

<< <i>But, if I have 6000 of insurance on a box, and the receiver says they never received the merchandise, then I have a valid claim against the Post Office. >>



There lies the problem. The guy failed to insure his package properly. Now he is trying to place blame on someone else.

curmudgeon

If you read the thread again, I think you'll find he did insure the package. The package arrived and was signed in. The USPS therefore is not responsible for a lost item. The package was not damaged, apparently--so again no USPS responsibility for that. The issue is whether the package did or did not contain the Magie error card. If it did, was it removed by a USPS employee, was it removed by a PSA employee, or was it inadvertently tossed out with packaging. The "twist" in the facts, as I understand them, is that there were two submission forms in the same package--thus, it was possible for one submission form to fully agree with the cards submitted, and, if the other submission form was lost/destroyed/stolen/not seen, then the card could have gone out with it and nobody would necessarily be the wiser.


My problem with the whole deal is that PSA apparently says it has cameras and other security devices to ensure that your cards arrive and are handled properly, but in this case there was some phenomenon- maybe cameras turned off, tape lost, etc. that prevents us from knowing what happened. Also, submitter was told early on that packages are flattened to make sure that everything has been removed. These are reasonable steps to protect against cards getting accidentally tossed, and may be expected by the consumer, especially if the advertising literature or employee representations tell someone that this is the procedure. Truly a tape showing this package's arrival, the removal of the cards and the flattening of the package would remove most if not all doubt. So where is the video? If you don't have the video, what happened, and why aren't these procedures in place? I can understand PSA not wanting to pay boatloads of money for what it believes to be unsupported claims, but they are the ones who want to inspire consumer confidence. Frankly, if it is their position, or any of yours either, for that matter, that this is strictly a case of submitter beware, then I very much disagree. The worst thing of all is that it appears one of the hobby's truly rare cards may have been tossed away and destroyed.

z2345

....or perhaps the package never contained the rare card.

Funny how there was a submittal form that matches what PSA has inputted in their database. The guy, however, is claiming that there is another form and perhaps another ppackage within the package? On one hand, the story is so dumb that I want to believe him. On the other hand, there simply is no proof to his allegation that this happened.

crazysc

You know, this really comes down to a question of how do you protect yourself against the simpliest scam of all:


Sell a card for $5000. Send the package fully insured. Carrier delivers it with no problems. Buyer claims to open it and find nothing inside. A single card, so no way the weight would prove anything conclusively. Your word against his...what do you do?

Or the flip side as you're the buyer and the seller claims the card was in there when he shipped it.


And worst of all, in this case, it appears to be between two entities with good reputations.

JoeOrlando

JoeOrlando

Hello All,

I just wanted to make something very clear about this situation:

There is absolutely NO evidence that this card was ever sent to PSA. While PSA is certainly capable of making a mistake, in this situation, no mistake was made.

There were no documents that even referred to the card in the package and, let me ask the users this question, "Would any of you send a $6,000 card with no tracking capability or insurance?" The card was not registered, insured or sent by any method such as Fed Ex or UPS, etc. where it could be tracked.

Unless I am missing something, we have no responsibility in this situation - period. I am not making a judgement about the character of the submitter here, I am merely making a call based on the evidence presented. There is no evidence that this card ever existed.

PSA has made it a policy to compensate customers where certain mistakes are made and we stand behind that policy today.

Sincerely,

1954

Joe-
PSA does do a fine job of protecting our collections. Thanks for doing a great job and thanks for employing professional people to look over our investments.

1954

dude

Joe -- Thanks for clarifying the details of the incident. The package wasn't even insured? WOW!

Hubcap

But Joe, are you admitting that PSA loses submitted cards? How is that possible with all the cameras, staff cross checking invoices to cards, etc????? Are they stolen?????? Plz explain how a customer's card that you have received can be lost.

carew4me

I know that many if not all of the recurring members here have submitted cards, myself included.

How many cards has PSA lost of yours?

Submitted: 354 Lost: 0

Hubcap

Five over the last year.

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>But Joe, are you admitting that PSA loses submitted cards? How is that possible with all the cameras, staff cross checking invoices to cards, etc????? Are they stolen?????? Plz explain how a customer's card that you have received can be lost. >>

Joe is not going to get into
a "pissing contest" with an
ANNONOMOUS, NEW-USER
that obviously just wants to get
a rise out of him!



Carrew, I agree.
As for me, 232 sent, 0 lost

BigKidAtHeart

<< <i>Five over the last year. >>


see?

mikeschmidt

Hubcap:

Please post some proof of your alleged claims. Thank you for any clarification.

crazysc

Submitted: More than I can count

Lost: None that I can recall

dude

carew4me -- I've sent in at least 5,000 cards since 1999 and not a single card has ever been lost.

mikeschmidt

Wow -- so we have Dude submitting over 5,000 with none lost ever. And we have Sol who has submitted well over a hundred thousand cards with none remembered as being lost.

At the end of the day, it seems like the primary problem here was with the shipping methodology. Just as there have been numerous people over the past 10 years who have packed their cards wrong only to have them get damaged in shipping -- this situation could easily have been avoided if the item was shipped per PSA's guidelines, and within the realm of "common sense"

JasP24

No insurance = no recourse....Too bad it took a $6K item to learn a lesson on, but that is a lesson we all learn at some point...Insurance PLUS delivery confirmation can do WONDERS for having NO cards getting "lost" in the mail...

JasP24

1954

Hubcap- Sorry to hear that PSA lost your five invoices of 1989 Topps. You must be disappointed.

1954

GATOR5

Hmmm, 6000 dolla card no insurance. Pretty brave risk. As for myself 4000 and counting
nothing gone hear.

dude

JasP24 -- Great point. Hopefully everyone who submits cards to any grading company or sends anything valuable anywhere will learn from this. As Tipem mentioned earlier, Registered Mail is the best and safest way to send anything valuable. Sending it any other way through the USPS is taking an unnecessary risk. It's sad that this happened, and now it's entirely possible the package was tampered with by a postal employee (opened and re-sealed with no appearance of damage). If some postal employee opened a registered package, it would be totally obvious and it would be an open and shut case for an insurance claim for the sender of the package. That postal employee would also be fired.

mikeschmidt

In fact, as a point of trivia, the Hope Diamond was sent to the Smithsonian Institution via Registered Mail.

Hubcap

The card was a 1951 Bowman Hank Sauer that was hand submitted at the previous to the last Ft Washington Show. The PSA person who took in the cards counted and matched up all the vintage commons with the invoice and I double checked all the cards with her. About 2 weeks later, I get a call from PSA that they can't find the Sauer card. The conclusion was that they never found the card, could not explain how the card could have gotten lost and reimbursed me $65 for the lost card.

In addition, I was missing 5 cards from another hand delivered Ft Washington submission when I opened the package upon delivery to my house. According to PSA and I assume Mr. Orlando, they were shipped and I have no recourse. So I am out the cards and no reimbursement because it's my word against theirs. The same happens when I get a badly vreased card back. I sent it in that way. Yeah right !

But there is no disagreement about the 1951 Bowman Hank Sauer. Perhaps you might want to check with Peter or Joe Orlando on that one. Thus, I think the question is a fair one. And I think you need to apologize for your rude comments about me being a "troll" !!!

Thanks
Al Zouky
ZEBRA Sports
www.zebrasportdisplays.com

Hubcap

1954:

I'm # 9 on the 1959 Set Registry and #17 on the 1961 Set Registry. And what number are you on which Set Registry?

Thanks
HUBCAP

dude

Hubcap -- A belated welcome to the Boards! You bought some '61's from me which were shipped out yesterday, so I know who you are. Sorry to hear about your lost cards.