Doug: A pop 3 PR70DCAM Jeff from the 1980's sold for $575 yesterday at public auction. Sure, I could have bid on it and run up the collector (I was sitting right there), but, I chose not to. I would personally pick the pop 3 Jeff anyday to the pop 4 Roosie you mention IMHO. But, what do I know
Wondercoin
Please visit my website at www.wondercoins.com and my ebay auctions under my user name www.wondercoin.com.
I'm singing the same song. I picked up the 73-s and 74-s Roosevelts, for about $1,000 each less than a year ago. Both pop 7/0. There will be no flooding of the PR70DC market for those years.
I'm just confused about the spending on these coins over the last couple of weeks, and where were they when Stokely put his collection up for auction?
I am in shock at the prices paid for these dimes also. Perhaps the buyer is building a top set and figures he can get the other dates for a song and needs the low pop dates at any price. Also the last couple of months have been very unusual for the PR70DCAM dime market with the flood of material that has been available. Remember only four dates in the series have pops of 30 or over. I have sat for what seems like months and not bought any dimes for my set. Yet in the last month or so I bought 4 PR70DCAM dimes and a 66 in MS68Cameo
"A fool and his money are soon parted." This was never more true than when referring to late-date PR70 coins. Low pops do not necessarily equate to "rare".
Somebody has been flooding PCGS with these later date Proof Roosevelts. I have been updating a spreadsheet about once a month with current pop reports, and there have been some huge numbers of PR69DC material, and I can only imagine how many have acutally been submitted that didn't make the 69 grade or DC.
All of a sudden, a fellow with the Ebay handle "Coin-slinger" has been throwing off a tremendous amount of PR70DC material on Ebay. I can only guess that he is doing the submitting, or knows who is.
From what I hear generally from the makers of PR70DC's is that it takes a tremendous amount of submissions to make a PR70DC. I just can't imagine that many candidates out there from the early 70's. IMHO, there might be some lurking in PR69DC slabs (or PR70's in NGC holders), but if they have been in those cheap government holders for the last 30 years, they are not going to make a 70. On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of 1998 candidates out there. For $1,800, you could buy and slab about a thousand dimes and surely hit a 70 somewhere in there, or more.
Doug If you think that is bad,look at Ebay auction #3026441609.A 2002 PR70 DCAM Lincoln sold for $2,285 plus S&H.I'm into Lincoln Proofs but not that kind of money.
<< <i>1800 bucks for a 1998 dime?? are you guys crazy? so many nice quality classic old coins could be haad for this type of money. >>
A nice quality classic 1798 dime would look pretty ridiculous as a filler for a 1998 dime in a Roosevelt dime set. There are people collecting the moderns and they are going to want a 1998 dime. It is not a given that demand will not be able to keep up with the populations as more of these get slabbed, nor is it a given that the coins will prove to be common.
You needn't be so defensive. Read my first post. I was referring to late-date PR70's, and I'm positive that time will prove me (and others) to be correct, while those holding their "perfect" PR70's will see them plummet in value. All it will take is for PCGS to be a little more generous in giving out PR70's, or to go out of business. (Their financial statements are not encouraging.) If a proof set has a production run of 3 million sets, and only 1 coin out of 100 qualifies as a PCGS PR70, that's still 30,000 coins, and not rare by any stretch of the imagination.
MS coins are a completely different story. I recognize that there are many condition rarities in modern coins, and feel that high grade MS coins from the 1980's in particular have a bright future. The quality of many coins from that era is abysmal, which, coupled with the fact that very few people saved rolls from those years, creates the formula for some surprisingly scarce coins in high grade. How many rolls of nickels, dimes, or quarters have you seen from the '80's? Most of the coins in 1980's mint sets were nothing special. And if you look at auctions like Teletrade, where many moderns are offered, there aren't many MS coins from the '80's.
I'll stick to my guns regarding the "rarity" of late-date (after 1978) PR70's, and the analogy to the tulip craze.
Print this and reread it in 10 years, when many more PR70's have been graded. (But keep buying those tougher MS coins!)
I'm not the biggest fan of proof coins and certainly the later date proof coins are made better than the older ones making them less rare in high grade. But there are many fans of proofs. There is nothing wrong with collecting them and no doubt those who do collect them enjoy their collections and acquiring them. Yes, there are more potential pitfalls here than in many other areas due to the greater number of unknowns. In any field that is mostly uncharted it is necessary to learn as much as possible and proceed with caution. Late date proofs are no exception. These collectors are likely not made up of large numbers of newbies, but it's safe to assume there is a higher percentage of newbies here than there are collecting bust dollars. Surely there are more appropriate ways to suggest to these folks that there are dangers in this arena. You could point out that the mint had some 750,000 customers for the proof sets and that not all these people are sophisticated enough to know that high grade pieces are valuable. It's likely that these coins won't all be searched for many years yet and during that time the coins will at least dribble onto the market. There are many valid caveats which could be considered for these (or any other) coins. Wouldn't it be more effective to point out the specific items which you find disturbing? Surely it would be easier for them to counter or answer specific statements than sweeping generalities. Perhaps some might even "see the light", but at the very least it would be more likely that we all learn something.
Guys, I'm in the process of slabbing all my Memorial Lincoln proofs. I'll take whatever grade I get. They look real nice in my Eagle bookshelf holders (9 to a page). My enjoyment is to have the complete set, all in PCGS holders. Is this an investment? Heck NO! This is an enjoyable hobby and I'm real proud to be part of the PCGS Set Registry. Steve
<< <i>Guys, I'm in the process of slabbing all my Memorial Lincoln proofs. I'll take whatever grade I get. They look real nice in my Eagle bookshelf holders (9 to a page). My enjoyment is to have the complete set, all in PCGS holders. Is this an investment? Heck NO! This is an enjoyable hobby and I'm real proud to be part of the PCGS Set Registry. Steve >>
It is exactly this attitude which has proven the big winner for "coin investments" in the past.
For $1,800 I bought an entire set of s-mint silver proof Roosevelt dimes in PR69DCAM that have the same eye-appeal of the PR70s for anyone who isn't using a microscope, and still had enough money left over for the finest-known PCGS graded cameo proof 1890 dime. Call me crazy, but it seems to me that these modern ultra-grades are just a benefit for sellers who want to make money.
Or for $1800 you can buy about "75" '98 proof sets. There's unlikely to be a proof-70 cent in it but there should be a proof 70 something in them that you can trade for a '98 Pr-70 cent. This coin will look much better in a memorial set than a silver dime.
That's exactly my point. If I had 75 or 100 1998 proof sets and sent all the coins to PCGS and got maybe one or two PR70s, I'd sell them for whatever I could get, no question. But I'd prefer not to be the fool who buys those coins. A pop 4 coin out of nearly 1 million minted that can't be distinguished from the hundreds of PR69s without a microscope is not a rarity, it's a marketing ploy. I believe buyers of these coins will be sorry when they realize how easily the values of their "investments" can be manipulated by factors beyond their control.
Essentially what you're saying is that no one can collect any coin that you feel is potentially overpriced. I feel 1804 dollars are overpriced so apparently no one should collect any early dollars. If all these people hear is that the coins are grossly over-priced and are just junk and they continue to drive the price up anyway, doesn't this say something about the potential for such coins. Demand for most moderns is continuing to increase sharply yet is still at low levels. Even if supply grows on the late- date proofs (and it will), it is not going to grow exponentially whereas de- mand already is growing exponentially. This is a presscription for much higher prices, not lower.
Not that higher prices are a sure thing or even likely. And lower prices are a distinct possibility and sharply lower prices can hardly be ruled out. Just saying that these prices seem too high to you means nothng, contributes nothing, and insults the people who are collecting these coins. If you have any knowledge of these series then we'd all be interested in hearing it. How many '98 proof sets have you looked at? How many Pr-70's have you made?
If you can tell the difference between a Pr-70 and a PR-69 with a microscope then you're doing better than most of us. It took me years to see the difference between a choice and a gem. How about some posts on spotting the difference? If you can double or triple your money buying '98 proof sets, why aren't you doing it?
Or tell us how one can manipulate these markets. Does it require collusion with the grading companies? Can it be done by controlling the supply? Or do you need to control the demand?
I really don't mean to sound insulting and I really disagree with you less than you might think, but I see no gain in insulting people and their coins. There are many classic, modern, darkside, and liteside coins which I feel are greatly overpriced. What is to be gained by insulting those who collect, deal, and trade in them? Why is it ac- ceptable to continually point out moderns which are percieved to be over priced but not the classics? Why are the "faults" of moderns fair game for anyone but no one points out problems with the classics?
These questions and similar ones have been asked many times, but instead of answers we get more bashing.
As far as I'm concerned, the only overpriced coin is the one for which I paid too much. And I don't pretend to be an expert in distinguishing a PR69 from a PR70 -- I'll freely admit I can't tell the difference.
This isn't a classic vs modern debate. It's a simple question of economics. As far as I can tell, the only difference between a $20 coin and an $1,800 coin is the opinion of a PCGS grader with a microscope, because the market doesn't accept PR70 coins slabbed by other grading services at that price level. Thus, the population of these coins depends on intangible factors, such as the grader's mood, eyesight or possibly even changing standards (I've heard several people complain about PCGS being "tight" and "loosening up" at times).
Why would someone bet on that? You might be right about demand increasing, so the potential for future profit is a motivating factor. But that's what motivates a dealer or a speculator, not a collector.
Having the best registry set means chasing the few PR70s out there, but then the value of the coin depends on the continuing popularity of the program, and the solvency of PCGS and its parent company.
Nobody needs to deliberately manipulate the market for the value of these coins to plunge -- all it takes is for tastes to change.
Even if I had the money to buy modern proof sets by the truckload and pay for the grading fees in hopes of finding ultra-grade coins, I'm not sure if it would be profitable. Perhaps others who have tried it could weigh in, but let me put my flameproof suit on first.
If only a speculator is concerned whether his coins go up or down in value then why do so many people worry about the performance of the prices of modern coins. Might it be a tacit admission that they've sold these coins short for nearly forty years.
Comments
Wondercoin
I'm just confused about the spending on these coins over the last couple of weeks, and where were they when Stokely put his collection up for auction?
bruce scher
Jim
All of a sudden, a fellow with the Ebay handle "Coin-slinger" has been throwing off a tremendous amount of PR70DC material on Ebay. I can only guess that he is doing the submitting, or knows who is.
From what I hear generally from the makers of PR70DC's is that it takes a tremendous amount of submissions to make a PR70DC. I just can't imagine that many candidates out there from the early 70's. IMHO, there might be some lurking in PR69DC slabs (or PR70's in NGC holders), but if they have been in those cheap government holders for the last 30 years, they are not going to make a 70. On the other hand, there are tens of thousands of 1998 candidates out there. For $1,800, you could buy and slab about a thousand dimes and surely hit a 70 somewhere in there, or more.
Just my ten cents. . .
PCGS Population Report - Discover the rarity of your coins. Subscribe to the PCGS On-Line Pop Report today!
If you think that is bad,look at Ebay auction #3026441609.A 2002 PR70 DCAM Lincoln sold for $2,285 plus S&H.I'm into Lincoln Proofs but not that kind of money.
Registry 1909-1958 Proof Lincolns
Well....... if PCGS says it's rare, it must be so.
Anybody wanna buy some tulips?
Jim
<< <i>1800 bucks for a 1998 dime?? are you guys crazy? so many nice quality classic old coins could be haad for this type of money.
>>
A nice quality classic 1798 dime would look pretty ridiculous as a filler for a 1998 dime
in a Roosevelt dime set. There are people collecting the moderns and they are going
to want a 1998 dime. It is not a given that demand will not be able to keep up with
the populations as more of these get slabbed, nor is it a given that the coins will prove
to be common.
tone
<< <i>
Anybody wanna buy some tulips?
>>
I bet you're wrong about tulips too. Bet you that many are worth more today than they
were during the "craze".
Common tulips were going for crazy money. There is nothing common about some moderns.
That you do not participate in it has no bearing on the market.
tone.
You needn't be so defensive. Read my first post. I was referring to late-date PR70's, and I'm positive that time will prove me (and others) to be correct, while those holding their "perfect" PR70's will see them plummet in value. All it will take is for PCGS to be a little more generous in giving out PR70's, or to go out of business. (Their financial statements are not encouraging.) If a proof set has a production run of 3 million sets, and only 1 coin out of 100 qualifies as a PCGS PR70, that's still 30,000 coins, and not rare by any stretch of the imagination.
MS coins are a completely different story. I recognize that there are many condition rarities in modern coins, and feel that high grade MS coins from the 1980's in particular have a bright future. The quality of many coins from that era is abysmal, which, coupled with the fact that very few people saved rolls from those years, creates the formula for some surprisingly scarce coins in high grade. How many rolls of nickels, dimes, or quarters have you seen from the '80's? Most of the coins in 1980's mint sets were nothing special. And if you look at auctions like Teletrade, where many moderns are offered, there aren't many MS coins from the '80's.
I'll stick to my guns regarding the "rarity" of late-date (after 1978) PR70's, and the analogy to the tulip craze.
Print this and reread it in 10 years, when many more PR70's have been graded. (But keep buying those tougher MS coins!)
Jim
are made better than the older ones making them less rare in high grade. But
there are many fans of proofs. There is nothing wrong with collecting them and
no doubt those who do collect them enjoy their collections and acquiring them.
Yes, there are more potential pitfalls here than in many other areas due to the
greater number of unknowns. In any field that is mostly uncharted it is necessary
to learn as much as possible and proceed with caution. Late date proofs are no
exception. These collectors are likely not made up of large numbers of newbies,
but it's safe to assume there is a higher percentage of newbies here than there
are collecting bust dollars. Surely there are more appropriate ways to suggest to
these folks that there are dangers in this arena. You could point out that the mint
had some 750,000 customers for the proof sets and that not all these people are
sophisticated enough to know that high grade pieces are valuable. It's likely that
these coins won't all be searched for many years yet and during that time the coins
will at least dribble onto the market. There are many valid caveats which could be
considered for these (or any other) coins. Wouldn't it be more effective to point out
the specific items which you find disturbing? Surely it would be easier for them to
counter or answer specific statements than sweeping generalities. Perhaps some
might even "see the light", but at the very least it would be more likely that we all
learn something.
My Complete PROOF Lincoln Cent with Major Varieties(1909-2015)Set Registry
<< <i>Guys, I'm in the process of slabbing all my Memorial Lincoln proofs. I'll take whatever grade I get. They look real nice in my Eagle bookshelf holders (9 to a page). My enjoyment is to have the complete set, all in PCGS holders. Is this an investment? Heck NO! This is an enjoyable hobby and I'm real proud to be part of the PCGS Set Registry. Steve
It is exactly this attitude which has proven the big winner for "coin investments" in the past.
Chuck
to be a proof-70 cent in it but there should be a proof 70 something
in them that you can trade for a '98 Pr-70 cent. This coin will look much
better in a memorial set than a silver dime.
Go figure!
That's exactly my point. If I had 75 or 100 1998 proof sets and sent all the coins to PCGS and got maybe one or two PR70s, I'd sell them for whatever I could get, no question. But I'd prefer not to be the fool who buys those coins. A pop 4 coin out of nearly 1 million minted that can't be distinguished from the hundreds of PR69s without a microscope is not a rarity, it's a marketing ploy. I believe buyers of these coins will be sorry when they realize how easily the values of their "investments" can be manipulated by factors beyond their control.
Chuck
you feel is potentially overpriced. I feel 1804 dollars are overpriced so
apparently no one should collect any early dollars. If all these people
hear is that the coins are grossly over-priced and are just junk and they
continue to drive the price up anyway, doesn't this say something about
the potential for such coins. Demand for most moderns is continuing to
increase sharply yet is still at low levels. Even if supply grows on the late-
date proofs (and it will), it is not going to grow exponentially whereas de-
mand already is growing exponentially. This is a presscription for much
higher prices, not lower.
Not that higher prices are a sure thing or even likely. And lower prices are
a distinct possibility and sharply lower prices can hardly be ruled out. Just
saying that these prices seem too high to you means nothng, contributes
nothing, and insults the people who are collecting these coins. If you have
any knowledge of these series then we'd all be interested in hearing it. How
many '98 proof sets have you looked at? How many Pr-70's have you made?
If you can tell the difference between a Pr-70 and a PR-69 with a microscope
then you're doing better than most of us. It took me years to see the difference
between a choice and a gem. How about some posts on spotting the difference?
If you can double or triple your money buying '98 proof sets, why aren't you doing
it?
Or tell us how one can manipulate these markets. Does it require collusion with
the grading companies? Can it be done by controlling the supply? Or do you need
to control the demand?
I really don't mean to sound insulting and I really disagree with you less than you
might think, but I see no gain in insulting people and their coins. There are many
classic, modern, darkside, and liteside coins which I feel are greatly overpriced. What
is to be gained by insulting those who collect, deal, and trade in them? Why is it ac-
ceptable to continually point out moderns which are percieved to be over priced but
not the classics? Why are the "faults" of moderns fair game for anyone but no one
points out problems with the classics?
These questions and similar ones have been asked many times, but instead of answers
we get more bashing.
In the late 1970s I stopped collecting signed Calders because the art market got too pricey.
Now, Ive just about reached my limit with proof washington quarters.
I expressed my feelings in another thread about being an Heritage Auction LOSER.
Time to find something new... or old....
cheers, alan mendelson
www.AlanBestBuys.com
www.VegasBestBuys.com
As far as I'm concerned, the only overpriced coin is the one for which I paid too much. And I don't pretend to be an expert in distinguishing a PR69 from a PR70 -- I'll freely admit I can't tell the difference.
This isn't a classic vs modern debate. It's a simple question of economics. As far as I can tell, the only difference between a $20 coin and an $1,800 coin is the opinion of a PCGS grader with a microscope, because the market doesn't accept PR70 coins slabbed by other grading services at that price level. Thus, the population of these coins depends on intangible factors, such as the grader's mood, eyesight or possibly even changing standards (I've heard several people complain about PCGS being "tight" and "loosening up" at times).
Why would someone bet on that? You might be right about demand increasing, so the potential for future profit is a motivating factor. But that's what motivates a dealer or a speculator, not a collector.
Having the best registry set means chasing the few PR70s out there, but then the value of the coin depends on the continuing popularity of the program, and the solvency of PCGS and its parent company.
Nobody needs to deliberately manipulate the market for the value of these coins to plunge -- all it takes is for tastes to change.
Even if I had the money to buy modern proof sets by the truckload and pay for the grading fees in hopes of finding ultra-grade coins, I'm not sure if it would be profitable. Perhaps others who have tried it could weigh in, but let me put my flameproof suit on first.
Chuck
why do so many people worry about the performance of the prices of modern
coins. Might it be a tacit admission that they've sold these coins short for nearly
forty years.