Lincoln Cent Wide AM/Type 2 opinions please
Manorcourtman
Posts: 8,063 ✭✭✭✭✭
Hello everyone, I have been a long time lurker but decided to finally post, what a great forum this is!!
I was looking for input on the 1998,1999,2000 "wide AM," or Type 2 cents which is going to be proposed as "legit" registry coin for PCGS Lincoln cent registry sets. Anyone got this email yet? They are graded by all the other grading services. I wrote Mr. David Hall a letter several months ago and submitted several examples to him. He emailed me yesterday that emails went or are going out to Lincoln Cent registry participants. What's your opinions on this matter? Ever heard of these coins? The 1999 is extremely rare by the way! One expert I spoke with thinks there many be less than 100 of them out there?
Manorcourtman
I was looking for input on the 1998,1999,2000 "wide AM," or Type 2 cents which is going to be proposed as "legit" registry coin for PCGS Lincoln cent registry sets. Anyone got this email yet? They are graded by all the other grading services. I wrote Mr. David Hall a letter several months ago and submitted several examples to him. He emailed me yesterday that emails went or are going out to Lincoln Cent registry participants. What's your opinions on this matter? Ever heard of these coins? The 1999 is extremely rare by the way! One expert I spoke with thinks there many be less than 100 of them out there?
Manorcourtman
0
Comments
They came into the limelight a couple of years back with some Coin World stories. Everybody was looking through rolls until their eyeballs were falling out. As I recall things, we're talking about a single proof die, with a run no more that what a single die will produce (about 1.2 million or so? Do I remember correctly?) The flurry of looking came up with a good number of 2000s. It is also my impression that the 1998s came in strong, but that 1999s have been very hard to find now in MS. Technically, a Type 2 reverse is possible from 1994 through 2000, but I'm only aware that specimens exist for 1998, 1999 and 2000.
I don't think many people are doing the tedious roll searches like they once did. Because of the large mintages for those years, it is probably the case that not many rolls are being deliberately held back. The possibility therefore exists that over time, good quality MS Type 2s are going to be very deireable, for all three years, and particularly for 1999.
I have heard that PCGS, in their usual belated fashion, has considered attributing the Type 2s and likely will some day. But I hadn't heard that they have done so yet (no population figures have appeared yet at PCGS). NGC has attributed them from the outset, though.
NGC shows 94 graded for 1998 (68 in 66, 18 in 67, none higher), 5 for 1999 (3 in 66, 2 in 67, none higher), and 43 in 2000 (16 in 66, 21 in 67, 2 in 68, none higher). The 2000 figure surprises me; I'd presumed it was the "common year."
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
My thinking is based on my sense that the flurry of interest/activity/high prices around the discovery of a contemporary variety has passed in this case, and that the prices have stabilized. While the pops of the 1998 at NGC seems to have risen by about 40% or so over the past several months, the 1999 pop and the 2000 pop have stayed the same, which says to me that people are not looking as avidly as they were, that they in fact are not particularly common, and that rolls are now passing on into circulation.
But I am prepared to defer to your wider knowledge.
rd,
Last I saw, the 99s were going for about $200.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Manorcourtman- Soon to be Registry participant in the Registry with my Kennedy halves. Lincolns are next!!
things are far different than they were when one million coins was considered a
key date. This is especially true for cents where attrition rates are staggeringly high.
Even if a concerted effort by large numbers of people were made to find these in cir-
culation, most would be lost long before the last were being removed. At one time
significant percentages of coins struck for circulation were intercepted by collectors
who would certainly retain any low mintage dates or varieties. Today, a tiny percentage
are saved back. If a million coins were minted, a few years later maybe only a thousand
coins would exist in rolls (if that).
Most agree that the 2000 is easiest with the '98 a distant second and the '99 a more distant
third. I've heard of '96 and '01 coins but haven't seen them. I found a nice '98 in circulation.
No others.
Welcome aboard Manorcourtman.
Thanks for your input. Given the limited availability of these coins, as a collector and investor do you go for quality (ie. MS63+) or quantity at this point? I was not collecting in 1995 when the DD craze was at its height so I am not aware of Lincoln trends among diehard collectors. I am wondering if this is why PCGS has yet to grade and recognize the wide AM cents? Given my limited resources I do not want to miss the boat at this point but I also recognize this is a risky proposition to invest in coins that noone really knows how many exist.....any thoughts from the old timers out there??
Manorcourtman
issues raw will likely prove problematic for all collectors. Most of us will have to
purchase at least one of the coins. The premiums for high grade examples may
be extremely high and price many out of them. Like all coin purchases there will
be a level of risk with these coins also. For my collection I will likely purchase
the highest grade before the price goes very high. If I were to set some aside
for future collectors, I would concentrate on nice pleasing examples in any grade.
These can be bought reasonably in XF or AU. I would consider this a long term
hold but might be able to sell in just a few years.
This is not to say that quantity beats quality in this example. Moderns are likely
to always be collected with an eye toward quality because of the large numbers
of poor quality coins in circulation, rolls, bags, and sets. The zinc cents are unlike-
ly to be an exception. These are merely my own personal preferences because
nothing is ever a sure thing. The rewards for the lower grade coins will be far
lower. The risks with the higher grades will be far higher.
Send it to NGC.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
Manorcourtman
I've heard that opinion somewhere before!
I'm sure PCGS will eventually get around to it.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
In 2000, enough of the Type 2 cents were found to spark the interest. Soon it was discovered that 1998 had a Type 2 reverse also. The 1999 Type 2 was only a rumor.
About 2 years ago, a set of, I believe, AU coins sold for a little over $100 on E Bay.
I was the LUCKY guy who read the ad in the back of Numismatic News, maybe 6 months ago, offering 1999 and 2000 Type 2 BROADSTRUCK cents for $15 each. I bought all the 1999 Broadstrikes from him I could, which unfortunatly was only 3. He stated to me at the time that he still had 12 1999 Type 2 Broadstruck cents in his posession he intended to hold for his daughter. He had a friend who worked the rolling machines at a large distributaion point.
Anyway, all 3 of the broadstruck 99 and 00 cents went off to ANACS because PCGS would not certify them, although they were in the Red Book.
Results:
Two MS65 and one MS66 1999 Type 2 Broadstruck.
The 3 2000 cents I bought from him graded exactly the same, two 65's and one 66.
I sold the lesser MS65, I thought MS63 at best, on E Bay for $199 a few months ago. Upon final inspection of the sold coin, I happened to notice a very distinctive clash mark under Lincoln's chin. The same clash mark was on the other MS65 BUT not on the MS66.
The rarity of the 1999 is evident on E Bay with the only other example in the last 6 months, a RAW BU sold for $318 maybe a month after mine sold.
MY THEORY: The 1999 Type 2 reverse die was used for only a short time due to a broken collar, which quickly produced broadstruck cents until the dies clashed without a planchet between them and was then quickly discarded.
I also have 3 1999 Type 2 normal coins. This is all I have been able to buy in the past 3 years, several of which came from ads in the back of Numismatic News (You people aren't paying attention, too much Internet).
The last guy I bought from said he had 10 coins left from his hoard of 1999's.
1999's Rare? I think so! The 2000 seems "common" compared to the 1998 and 1998 appears "commom" when compared to the 1999 which appears "RARE".
Just as a footnote, the guy that sold me the 1999 broadstruck cents stated that he had sold "several" to Ken Potter, noted error/variety expert.
Here are the NGC POPs for these coins and they clearly show the 99s are less common.
09/07/2006
You must have the other MS66 for 1999.
Here's a warning parable for coin collectors...
09/07/2006
M.
09/07/2006
RELLA
who boasts of twenty years experience in his craft
while in fact he has had only one year of experience...
twenty times.
09/07/2006
I'd have heard of it if they did, so most probably not.
Very few varieties appear in modern sets. Relatively few dies are used for their
production so the odds are usually against it.
M.