Is doctoring/altering/lasering, etc. a fastly growing concern in other hobbies as it is in ours?

SethChandler

I also collect vintage Patek Philippe Wristwatches and it is becoming a problem. For instance, a scarce chronograph from the 1940's with a nice original dial (face) would be worth 25k. Non-original, damaged, painted over (redial) its worth 15k. On the flipside someone could (and they do) alter a damaged dial to make it look original, therefore giving the appearance of the real thing. The one downside to technology. The 10K question.

Any thoughts?

Seth

Russ

It's a huge problem in quite a few collectible areas. Frequently when watching the Antiques Road Show, you'll see some poor owners given the bad news about an item that they thought was the real deal, that was either counterfeit, cleaned, or restored (doctored) in such a way as to deceive.

I think it might be more prevalent in coins, though, because of the enormous supply of raw material. In your example of Patek Philippe watches, they weren't exactly stamping those puppies out by the container load.

Russ, NCNE

coinguy1

Seth, I collect a particular make of rare pottery from the late 1800's-early 1900's and read, recently, that there are now techniques/materials to make repairs that do not even show up under black light. Previously, that was a great way to be able to determine whether repairs had been made.

I would guess that virtually no hobby is completely immune from those who can make good money by repairing/altering/improving items. Some do it to make it look better for collectors who prefer the restoration and others do it to deceive and profit handsomely.

MadMonk

I could get real philosophical over all this, but I won't. Monk stuff. That said, I will add that if, and when, done to decieve, it should be considered a crime.

airplanenut

I think this is similar. When I went with my mom to Amsterdam in 2001, she really wanted to walk away with some Delftware. True Delft is made only by that one company, but go to many stores around Amsterdam and they have very similar-looking materials and patters, out to deceive. They can even say Delft because it is simply a city of manufacture. When we got ours, it was at the factory, but I'm sure many people are deceived by it.

Also, about watches, those guys with Rolexs for $10 in NYC... or Oakley glasses for $10... man, one could easily get fooled by them!

Jeremy

MrEureka

Improving technologies will increasingly make it easier and much cheaper to buy VERY CLOSE SUBSTITUTES for perfectly original coins. (Compare to the generic drug market, where close subsitutes put price pressure on the original.) So, shouldn't we EXPECT the premium on originality to decline? Shouldn't we be HAPPY about this?

I have no idea how this will all shake out. What do you think?

paigowjohnny

sports cards and memorabilia...currency...stamps...art. You name it...if a collectable has a dollar value tagged to it, you're gonna see "gamesmanship" and doctoring.

All "doctors" should be artificially toned and shot

dorkkarl

<< <i>Is doctoring/altering/lasering, etc. a fastly growing concern in other hobbies as it is in ours >>

yes it is. i've seen an unusually large number of doctored beanie babies entering the collectible market. some of them have had stitches repaired & stains removed!

K S

braddick

There are even "Beanie Doctors" who will, for a fee, repair and mend your hurt (and still somewhat valuable) older Beanie.

When will the madness end?

MadMarty

If yo want to see knockoffs, just take a trip to Asia! They have everything there from videos, software, to computer hardware and for us Trade Dollars!

Zerbe

Hummels are ceramic and repairs used to be detected with a blacklight. Even better, is If you had a dentist friend, then he could find a repair with his xray machine. As long as at least ten years ago, repairs to Hummels could be made by professionals and not detected.
I don't know if a professionally repaired Hummel would bother me, if I collected them. If the repair is so good that it cannot be detected, then the Hummel is as good as new, in my opinion. Keep in mind though that there are some Hummels worth over $15,000.

Nic

The problem with doctoring in any field is that there is more money to be made by doing it than detecting it. As prices go up this often results it better detection techniques... MRI vs Xray vs old blacklight. History tells us originals are where the money will be..... most times. K

dpoole

All the more reason now to have certification services and the guarantees.

Otherwise, the inability of the average or even the above-average Joe to tell the difference between the real McCoy and a carefully crafted counterfeit would eventually destroy the hobby.

Dog97

I play with guns and there are a lot of people tell me that they inherited an "old timey gun" and want me to look at it and tell them what it's worth. It's always one of those cheap Italian modern made cap & ball black powder revolvers.
Of course guns are graded, similar to the way coins are. If they have fingerprints etched into the finish or the finish is worn off they are lower grade and of course to improve the grade they are crudely refinished by do it yourselfers or even professionally. Of course applying a new "original" patina to the gun metal is frowned upon just like putting new toning on a coin. Just like in coins a knowledgeable collector can tell.
To be factory original all the numbers on the parts must match and numbers are altered and after market parts are used and even original parts off of other guns are swapped around.
Just as in coins a wannabe dealer or collector might pay $5,000 for an original Colt worth $15,000 at a show but when he goes to sell it a real expert catches it and the gun really isn't worth $1,000.
And of course there are rip-off mail order coin dealers and there is a internet gun auction site that looks just like eBay where you can get ripped off just as easy.