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Is it Really the Fear of Lawsuits that Keeps Dealers From Publicly Exposing Coin Doctors?

dragondragon Posts: 4,548 ✭✭
in U.S. Coin Forum
Or is it just possibly that so many big name and well respected dealers have financial 'ties' with them, and can't expose them without risk of exposing themselves??

I just said in another thread that if a few of the really BIGTIME coin docs were ever to 'sing', that it could possibly turn into an Enron or Worldcom type fiasco............any thoughts??



dragon

PS: I am only presenting a hypothetical idea here and speculation, nothing more.

Comments

  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    I think it's fear of having their supply of coins (revenue) cut off.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • eagle7eagle7 Posts: 1,441
    This is just pure speculation on my part Dragon and I must narrow the focus here for a moment. Lets focus only on the toned coin market, all denominations and dates. That is where the hot money is now for those who are good enough to get their coins into the top tier slabs. PCGS, NGC and ANACS. I would bet that you could count those people on the fingers of one hand. Im talking about those who can get their coins slabbed on a regular basis. The money is big and the rewards handsome. I would also guess that they have a network of friends who upstream the coins into slabs for them which would avoid the problem of the graders seeing the same color schemes from the same party which would throw up a red flag. These friends also sell the coins and make a handsome profit themselves. Naturally, no one wants to be the one who kills the goose with the golden egg inside. It is my assesment that the whole thing will survive until the market kills it off. When we are bombed with Morgan dollars with the same colors(which is close to reality right now) and people get enough of them, then the thing will run out of fuel and die. There will however always be a market for the real stuff(like the Conintental Bank Hoard toned coins) that will never die. Once you look at lots of these same looking coins, the real thing just jumps out at you like a ton of bricks and you cant miss it! image
    In an insane society, a sane person will appear to be insane.
  • ANACONDAANACONDA Posts: 4,692 ✭
    Dealers tell others who is doctoring coins all the time to help them protect themselves.


    Coin World and Numismatic News should be exposing the coin doctors.

  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    They should tell us collectors to help protect us.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • stmanstman Posts: 11,352 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Now Big Dog, The man just said they tell others.... not us low life collectors. We're just supposed to shut up, go to web site, and order and trust them.
    Please... Save The Stories, Just Answer My Questions, And Tell Me How Much!!!!!
  • foodudefoodude Posts: 3,575 ✭✭✭
    One of the best defenses to combat the coin doctors is information/experience. Although a few bad eggs may slip through PCGS and NGC catch most of the bad ones, yeah I too can name what at least to me are some slips, an MS 68 01-S quarter in someone elses holder comes to mind; awesome surfaces, when I saw it in the holder it was winter white, but it looked a bit odd, like may be it once had a suntan - (but that is just my opinion, and I may be wrong). What I try to do is keep track of what has been discovered about the coin doctor's work, what it looked like, what I know is real based on additional evidence other than just looking at the coin, etc. In addition, there is some basic information that you aquire after looking at a look of coins of what just isn't right (it could be legit, but when you see certain things the red flags should come out and a very careful look at the coin and the advice of others is needed.

    Turning to toning in particular, it is usually easy to pickout the quick AT jobs. The colors aren't right, the way the colors blend is off, the way the toning sit on the fields, and devices is wrong, etc. In addition, although this may sound odd, if you have a raw coin smell it (but don't take in too much). Some of the quick AT jobs smell (and they be be using bad stuff), and if it smells it is a bad egg.
    Greg Allen Coins, LLC Show Schedule: https://forums.collectors.com/discussion/573044/our-show-schedule-updated-10-2-16 Authorized dealer for NGC, PCGS, CAC, and QA. Member of PNG, RTT (Founding Platinum Member), FUN, MSNS, and NCBA (formerly ICTA); Life Member of ANA and CSNS. NCBA Board member. "GA3" on CCE.
  • RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭✭
    The dealers who know of the coin doctors, and refuse to "tell all" should be barred from ever doing business in the numismatic field!
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    maybe it's because not that many people are really all that concerned w/ coin doctors.

    also, all you have to do is keep your eyes & ears open, & become friendly w/ a couple of trusted dealers. it really is not mystery who the main coin dr.'s are

    K S
  • UncleJoeUncleJoe Posts: 2,544 ✭✭✭
    Is it illegal to doctor a coin?

    I think if you tried to explain to a jury (non-coin collecting) the difference between conserving/cleaning, doctoring/AT/natural toning? (in sulpher-laden paper products) I think you would have a problem.

    I for one do not think you have much of a case.

    So the answer is: YES. How can you expose something that I don't think needs a defense?

    Joe.
  • byergobyergo Posts: 586 ✭
    Please private message me if you can name any dealers who doctor coins (especially Morgan rainbow doctors)?
    Buy/Sell/Trade Rainbow Morgans
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    there is a very simple & 100% effective defense against coin doctors. it's based on something i've repeated time & again, & occasionaly been ridiculed for, but i'll repeat it here, again:

    if you like the coin, if you really really like it, the price does not matter.

    basically, if the coin looks beautiful to you, i mean truly beautiful, then what does it matter that it's doctored, etc?

    K S
  • tradedollarnuttradedollarnut Posts: 20,162 ✭✭✭✭✭
    basically, if the coin looks beautiful to you, i mean truly beautiful, then what does it matter that it's doctored, etc?

    Yeah - what does it matter that your beautiful looking coin is unstable and turns black within a year. image
    Early Dollar Set
  • BarryBarry Posts: 10,100 ✭✭✭


    << <i>Dealers tell others who is doctoring coins all the time to help them protect themselves.

    Coin World and Numismatic News should be exposing the coin doctors. >>


    Can't blame a for-profit publication like Coin World for being the way they are. They have never come out against ACG, short of a few innuendos in Trends from time to time. OTOH, the ANA is a non-profit society that SHOULD be taking the lead on all sorts of consumer-protection issues. But they don't do it.
  • ZerbeZerbe Posts: 587 ✭✭
    Coin Doctors are a great asset to the coin hobby. They have spent many hours in dank, badly lit rooms to learn their craft. The new high tech equipment for enhancing and restoring a coins surface is not cheap either.

    If it were not for coin doctors, the supply of 'Sexy', PQ, High End coins would not begin to supply todays unsatiable coin collectors.

    Coin Doctoring is a talent and underappreciated. To turn an ugly, pitted, Morgan Dollar into a wildly toned, Monster, is truely an art.

    These works of art are able to pass through PCGS and NGC, with high grades and authenticated as original gems.

    We pay exceedingly high prices for these works of art, but they are worth it. Nobody really appreciates the hours of trial and error, to tone correctly, or to fill and laser with precision. A coin doctor is so deserving of our praise for his dedication to the coin hobby and numismatics.

    I believe that Coin World and Numismatic News should print the names of the leading coin doctors, as a tribute to their unrelenting
    passion for the enhancing of the objects we so love.

    Everybody knows by now who the leaders of this fine industry are, and they should be recognised for their unselfish accomplishments.

    Coin World and Numismatic News, please give credit and proper recognition to these respectable artisans, who have ads in your papers and on occasion have their pictures posted in your papers as well.

    Also appreciated would be a list of addresses of the top notch coin doctors, so that we may send our ugly, hairlined, dark toned, crap, to be transformed into original, beautifull, masterpieces.

    Thank you in advance Coin World and Numismatic News for enlightening and advancing the fine art of Coin Doctoring.

    One last thought: It would be a shame to not recognise this profession as it equates with the worlds oldest profession and I for one, totally support it.

    Respectfully Yours,

    Steve Van Gogh
  • coinguy1coinguy1 Posts: 13,484 ✭✭✭
    dragon,

    In a nutshell, I believe it is a case of some people knowing who some of the the doctors are, but also knowing that in many cases, it would be very difficult (though not impossible) to PROVE.
  • ANACONDAANACONDA Posts: 4,692 ✭
    "The dealers who know of the coin doctors, and refuse to "tell all" should be barred from ever doing business in the numismatic field!"

    Seems kinda harsh. But anyway.....

    I like coins that acquire their patina over decades as opposed to minutes or days or months, however if someone can artificially tone a coin and the toning is stable and they can get it by NGC or PCGS, it doesn't bother me nearly as much as many other things.

    (By the way, I appreciate it when my words are not taken out of context and when no attempt at attaching unreasonable inplications to my words are made. I know that this is a sensitive area, the area of artificial toning. Maybe the reason it doesn't get me all worked up is I feel like i have a pretty good handle on being able to identify artificial toning. Of course, from a theorhetical standpoint, the very best artificially toned coins are never identified as being artificially toned. I guess it's kinda like the best breast implants. If it's done right, it could be a blessing under some circumstances.)

    adrian
  • FrattLawFrattLaw Posts: 3,290 ✭✭
    Wow! Zerbe's talking about prostitution and Anaconda's debating breasts! This Board's getting more "sexy" everyday! image

    Gotta watch out for Lucy though.

    Michael
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Because getting ####ed is on everybody's mind.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • ANACONDAANACONDA Posts: 4,692 ✭
    Getting ####ed

    WITHOUT PERMISSION

    is indeed something to avoid.
  • ZerbeZerbe Posts: 587 ✭✭
    Getting ####ed, with permission is equivalent to buying coins from Steve Van Gogh !!image This may have smething to do with coins being called 'SEXY'.
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Getting ####ed and not knowing it is something to avoid.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • ANACONDAANACONDA Posts: 4,692 ✭
    Knowing who the coin doctors are is marginally helpful. BUT knowing what an AT coin looks like or more importantly what naturally toned coins look like is many, many more times valuble.

    Any coin can be sold many, many times. The first sale that we're talking about knowing about is but just one of the many sales that will take place for that particular coin.

    Furthermore, anyone who is doctoring coins probably has a number of different outlets for them.

    Again, knowing the identity of a coin doctor is not nearly as important as knowing what his product looks like, as well as the product of other coin doctors.
  • DoctorOfToneDoctorOfTone Posts: 81


    What is wrong with being a coin artist. I know of several people who practice this art form simply for pleasure. They think it is nice to take an unappealing coin and doing a makeover on it. Its not for profit but for the beauty. It leaves ones mark on the world. Toning a coin is freedom of artistic expression and is a rewarding practice and they don't mean financially. It gives them a warm fuzzy feeling when I make somehting from nothing. It is not their goal to defraud collectors, they believe it is art.
    The D.O.T.
  • Dog97Dog97 Posts: 7,874 ✭✭✭
    Let's give DOC a good ####ing.
    Change that we can believe in is that change which is 90% silver.
  • nwcsnwcs Posts: 13,386 ✭✭✭
    What is wrong with it? It's misleading unless the coin doctor discloses and documents the work done on a coin when requested. If the coin doctor does not admit they have altered a coin when asked (and they indeed had altered it), then they are lying. And that is something that can be dealt with.
    Blog and Pics
  • airplanenutairplanenut Posts: 22,248 ✭✭✭✭✭
    We could just mail them a PhD of Coins
    JK Coin Photography - eBay Consignments | High Quality Photos | LOW Prices | 20% of Consignment Proceeds Go to Pancreatic Cancer Research
  • LakesammmanLakesammman Posts: 17,417 ✭✭✭✭✭
    Anaconda:

    Just like coins, once you get them out of the holders, you can usually tell.....image
    "My friends who see my collection sometimes ask what something costs. I tell them and they are in awe at my stupidity." (Baccaruda, 12/03).I find it hard to believe that he (Trump) rushed to some hotel to meet girls of loose morals, although ours are undoubtedly the best in the world. (Putin 1/17) Gone but not forgotten. IGWT, Speedy, Bear, BigE, HokieFore, John Burns, Russ, TahoeDale, Dahlonega, Astrorat, Stewart Blay, Oldhoopster, Broadstruck, Ricko, Big Moose.
  • RegistryCoinRegistryCoin Posts: 5,117 ✭✭✭✭


    << <i>"The dealers who know of the coin doctors, and refuse to "tell all" should be barred from ever doing business in the numismatic field!" >>


    Harsh??? What a Joke!
    It is only harsh to those who want to find legitimacy in their immoral and unethical behavior.
    Any "professional" dealer who refuses to share they're knowledge of those guilty of involvement in unethical behavior are truely unethical, and guilty, and should be banned from the field where they practice their deception (even if only "of omission")! Any dealer who looks the other way while the community and individuals are getting "raped" by coin doctors, is a criminal, and should be dealt with, as such.
  • dorkkarldorkkarl Posts: 12,691 ✭✭✭
    i like original coins, but i also agree w/ d.o.t

    K S

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