PR70 Prices

tompkins · May 11, 2003 12:05AM

What do people think about the prices of PR70 coins these days. On the one hand there are some still selling at exhorbitant prices (some of the pennies, for example). On the other hand, I see things like this coin, West Point PR70DCAM, with no takers at a start of $379 and a BIN of $500. A month ago, these had a BIN of $625-$650 and they were selling (I even bought one at about that price, fool that I am). The Stokely dimes were a mixed bag: but most of them sold pretty cheaply, except a few that high ranked registry sets needed to improve their sets. And the 2003 quarters seem to almost be a dime a dozen! I think this reflects improvement in the quality coming out of the mint. But you have to wonder whether it also reflects a loosening of the standards. And if so, wouldn't it follow that some earlier (earlier than 2003, that is) coins will start showing up in 70? And if so, what happens to the prices?

Even down a grade, what did the bump in 69DCAM pop of the 71-S nickel (from 4 to 10 in a matter of weeks) do to the price? I know Carl has one for sale on his web site. I suspect he'd have asked substantially more two months ago (any comment Carl?).

As I see all these PR70 state quarters on eBay at BIN's in the $1250-$1500 range, I have to wonder if this won't be down to $500, or so, in a few months. That is certainly what happens each year in the circulation state quarters. In years past, If you want to be the first one to own a MS68, it costs you $1000, but if you wait until the end of the year, you get them for 20% of that (at least the 'P's). In general, I'll look at 70 state quarters, but I think that by the end of the year, I might be able to get a 5-coin 2003 set for about $2,000!

Any thoughts?

Pete

wondercoin · May 11, 2003 12:40AM

"In years past, If you want to be the first one to own a MS68, it costs you $1000, but if you wait until the end of the year, you get them for 20% of that (at least the 'P's). In general, I'll look at 70 state quarters, but I think that by the end of the year, I might be able to get a 5-coin 2003 set for about $2,000!"

Pete: Good thread.

A couple comments:

1. The $1000 comment about MS68 state quarters really has not applied in the past couple years. For example, when the 2002 coins came out, the very top highs were less than $200 as I recall to those who had to have them. Most were sold closer to $100-$150 at the peak when pops were tiny. I personally don't even bother to get the first coins out (like all the state quarters being sold from 2003 rolls), because I agree with you that they have no where to go but down when the mint sets come out - AND I THINK NEARLY EVERYONE WHO COLLECTS HIGH GRADE STATE QUARTERS KNOWS THAT BY NOW - but they chose to buy the first coins for their own personal reasons (perhaps they are simply "rich").

2. Many more of the 2003 proof and MS coins simply are being produced "perfect" these days by the mint. Miles Standish (who will be attending our luncheon) told me so when I questioned why the pop on the Arkansas state quarter in Proof 70 is already 19 coins!! This also explains why there are 600+ MS70 gold coins from 2003 and the same applies to silver proof Eagles. This also has NOTHING to dowith pre-2003 coinage in many cases according to Miles (who grades nearly all of it for PCGS). By the way, Miles specifically said I could post what I said in this paragraph (one scolding a month is all I can take on these boards)

3. But, consider this - even though they slabbed 600+ MS70 gold coins from 2003, the "perfect" % is still roughly 1.5% for the 1 oz. coins. This means you would need to submit roughly 75 coins to make an MS70. Assuming roughly $350/coin, you need to buy roughly $26,250 in gold and pay upwards of $900 in grading fees to actually make one yourself!!! Then, you need to sell (74) MS69 POSSIBLY AT A SLIGHT LOSS PER COIN, AS LAST TIME I CHECKED, I WAS TOLD THAT SOME MAJOR DEALERS WERE SELLING THESE AT $1 OVER COST!!!! PETE: MY POINT IS, IMHO, THIS COIN IS UNLIKELY TO DROP BENEATH SOME POINT (SAY $1000-$1500) SIMPLY BECAUSE IT TAKES $27,500 IN CAPITAL TO MAKE A SINGLE COIN - - EVEN IF YOU ASSUME PCGS HAS BEEN A BIT "LOOSER" (THIS MAY NOT BE THE CASE AT ALL) AND THAT THE COINS ARE NOW BEING MADE SUPER SPECIAL. The same analysis from #3 above applies to everything, state quarters and silver proof eagles included.

Frankly, if I wanted a couple MS70 1 oz 2003 gold coins (for example) bad enough, the roadmap is simple to get them and all I need to do is to pull roughly $55,000 in capital together and "get started". But, besides the raw figures discussed above, I can't tell you how much time goes into obtaining the "raw materials", preparing the batch of coins for grading, picking them up, running back and forth to the bank to safeguard the other 148 MS69 coins, selling them off, etc., etc., etc. All for what? Even if they are worth $2500/coin - all that for $5k? I'd rather buy a nice $55,000 coin at auction and "flip it" for 10% the next day

The steps needed to make MS70/PR70 material (including the low % of coins that still make it) is what, IMHO, will keep prices higher than you might imagine. And, I do selectively "play" in these markets at times, but, expend a great deal of time and energy doing so. Incidently, I have not ordered my 2003 1 oz gold coins yet.

Wondercoin

CarlWohlforth · May 11, 2003 12:40AM

Two months ago it would have taken a lot more to buy my '71-S because I wasn't selling it. If I had put it up for sale I might have tried to auction it starting at $2,500...

tgilliams · May 11, 2003 1:41AM

excellent thread and thanks for the reality check Wondercoin.

pontiacinf · May 11, 2003 3:02AM

Mitchell is always on top of things.

I have been bugging this poor man for years since the statehoods came out for a DCAM70...well he finally got me one last year, decent price and I feel it will hold value...as for buying the cheaper ones this year to pump my grade point...im gonna wait...its disturbing to see these going for so cheap but also the pops on some are like a runaway frieght train//

Carl if I had the 2k I wouldve snapped that 71-s and wouldnt have blinked at the pop change...then...now...oh well

Typetone · May 11, 2003 4:13AM

The only reason I would buy a PR70DCAM right now would be to improve my PCGS 20th century proof registry set. Unfortunately, 99 is the last year that is eligible. I already have the clad regular Washington, the clad Roosie, a zinc Lincoln, a Jeff, a clad Kennedy, and an SBA. And all are legit 70s, IMO.

Would consider buying any of the following in PR70 DCAM: a 59 to 82 Lincoln, any Bicentennial Washington, Kennedy, or IKE, a 1999 statehood quarter, a 92 - 99 silver Kennedy, any silver, gold, or platinum bullion piece dated 1999 or prior, or any clad, silver, or gold modern commem dated 1999 or earlier. However, my sense is that these are all very expensive pieces. The more legitimate common proof 70DCAM material seems more concentrated in the last year or two or mintage. If I am wrong and anyone has any of these in the $600 or less range please shoot me a PM with what you have. Of course they need to be legit 70s.

Greg

Typetone · May 11, 2003 4:24AM

Whoops, my error.

Per my prior post, the bullion and commems are not eligible for the 20th century type set. They are eligible for the modern proof typeset, but for that set are not limited to a 1999 end date. So, I would also consider bullion and commem pieces from 00 - 03. Will look at the West Poinst piece. If anyone has 00 - 03 bullion or commems to sell in PCGS PR70 DCAM, let me know as well.

Greg

Typetone · May 11, 2003 4:34AM

I noticed, in reviewing the pops, that the 1998 $50 platinum has 279 graded in 70DCAM. Anybody know how much that piece goes for and if they are available?

Greg

LEARJETSAM · May 12, 2003 1:41AM

HELLO,

EXCELLENT THREAD PETE, AND A VERY GOOD ANSWER BY WONDERCOIN.

I HAVE A FEW PR70DCAM SILVER EAGLES IN MY REGISTRY SET, SO "HOPEFULLY" I KNOW A LITTLE ABOUT PR70DCAM COINS.

LET'S START WITH A 1999 PROOF SILVER EAGLE, 1910 GRADED BY PCGS AND HAS A "POP" OF 2. 2000 PROOF SILVER EAGLE 3084 GRADED "POP" 1.
2001 SILVER EAGLE 4668 GRADED "POP" 11. 2002 SILVER EAGLE 2351 "POP" 9. NOW LETS LOOK AT THE 2003, 835 GRADED "POP" 23. I'VE BEEN TOLD THE 2003 GOLD AND SILVER EAGLES ARE THE BEST EVER OUT OF THE MINT.

SO LET'S TAKE THE 2001, "POP" 11 OUT OF 4668 COINS GRADED, CHECK MY MATH, BUT DOESN'T THAT COME OUT TO .25%? 1/4 OF 1%. SO TO GET ONE 2001 PCGS PR70DCAM SILVER EAGLE I WOULD HAVE TO SEND IN 424 RAW SILVER EAGLES. SAY $10,000 FOR THE COINS, $5,000 FOR GRADING. WOW ! ! !
I HAD A 2001 AND A 2002 IN MY REGISTRY SET FOUR MONTHS AGO. I SAW THE "POP" NUMBERS GOING UP REAL FAST, SO I SOLD OFF THREE OF MY PR70DCAM SILVER 97, 01, 02. I DIDN'T WANT ALL MY EGGS IN ONE BASKET SO TO SPEAK. SO WHAT DO YOU THINK?

THEY HAVE ALMOST DOUBLED IN PRICE IN THE LAST FOUR MONTHS.

THE 2003, I'LL WAIT AT LEAST 6 MONTHS, TO SEE HOW MANY PR70DCAMS ARE GRADED. FAIR PRICE, $500 OR LESS?

I BOUGHT ONE OF THOSE WEST POINTS IN MS70 FOR $325 ABOUT 6 MONTHS AGO. NOW THE "POPS" OVER 200 AND YOU CAN FIND ONE FOR LESS THAN $200.

SOMETIMES IT REALLY PAY'S TO WAIT.

WELL,
THAT'S MY SILVER DOLLARS WORTH,
SAM

relayer · May 12, 2003 2:55AM

I made 2 of the 42 2002-W West Point PR70DC's - out of about 10 I submitted. Not too shabby.

I sold the first one for $1500 when it was a pop 12/0, and kept the other for my type set.

I had an epifany about PR70DC's last year and sold off all the ones I had acquired at strong prices and wouldn't buy any now.

The worst example I've seen lately was a 2001 Buffalo $1 PR70DC that went for $5000 last month on eBay

MoneyLA · May 12, 2003 3:33AM

As you might know, I had a date run of silver proof washingtons in 70 -- 1960 thru 1964 -- and I sold these as part of my #1 registry set when it was #1.

unfortunately, when pcgs changed the registry rules it gave a higher point total to pr69dcams than to proof-70s, and that in turn drove prices down for pr70 (non dcam) coins and actually made them less desirable even when pr70dcam coins are non-existant.

frankly, I disagreed with the point system change then and I still disagree with it. I think a pr70 with or without a cam or dcam is still a "higher coin" than a pr69dcam.

but I am clearly in the minority.

cheers, alan mendelson

tompkins · May 12, 2003 1:31PM

Alan,
You bring up an interesting point. . . PR70 (not CAM or DCAM) coins from the early 60's seem to command a lower (sometimes significantly lower) price than the same coin in 69DCAM. Presumably, the PR70 is a "perfect" coin: that is no blemishes or scratches whatsoever on the surface. The PR69DCAM will have a minor tick mark or blemish (otherwise it would be a 70, right?). So what is the relative value of a "perfect coin" without cameo effects versus a not quite perfect coin with a deep cameo surface? PCGS has obviously ruled that the 69DCAM is the better (at least rating-wise) coin. Prices tend to indicate that collectors agree. But do collectors agree becuase of the rating bonus or because they really think that DCAM is more important than a scratch free surface.

Alan indicated his feeling, I think. I think I disagree with him for the following reason: there is truly very little difference (to my eye anyway) between a 69 and a 70. But there is a tremendous difference between a PR69 and a PR69DCAM. I don't recall ever having seen a PR70 in person (I own a couple of 70DCAMS); but I assume the differnce between a 70 and 70DCAM would be equally dramatic. For that reason (that is just the visual appearance of the coins), I tend to agree with PCGS that DCAM is worth a ocuple points. And in some of the SMS issues, they even alloow three points (obviously, these don't exist in 70 CAM or otherwise).

Pete

MoneyLA · May 13, 2003 2:39AM

Obviously Im in the minority, believing that a pr70 is more desirable than a pr69dcam. this is why I sold off my washington registry set when it was number one. it had all five available pr70 coins -- 1960 thru 64, and to the best of my knowledge only one other collector had all five and he later liquidated his collection as well.

frankly, I admit that pr69dcam coins are more attractive and have more "eye appeal," and you can't dispute the eye appeal of the frosting.

however, through all my years of collecting "perfection of preservation" was always the main thrust -- and pr70 indicates the perfection of preservation while pr69 whether brilliant, cam or dcam, does not.

but Im in the minority.

oh well.

now I collect rainbow and color-toned proof washingtons hoping that someday pcgs won't rule that brilliant white gets more points than toned.

cheers, alan

lordmarcovan · May 16, 2003 11:55AM

Generally speaking, $100 is my upper limit on any coin struck during my own lifetime, unless it has a gold or platinum bullion value exceeding that.

I've been out of the PR70 market for a while, as you can imagine. But I bought a few nice PCGS PR70 DCAM coins (clad Washingtons and Kennedies, and an SBA) on Teletrade, for $50-75 each, back in '98. Things have heated up considerably in the last five years. Even if the bubble bursts, we probably won't ever see the kind of prices I paid in 1998, ever again.

PR70 Prices

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