grading gold???????
cosmicdebris
Posts: 12,332 ✭✭✭
I know this is the US coin and forum and that is why I am posting this here. I need some expert opinions on what you guys think this Gold Coin should grade. Also if any of you could in your opinion what would PCGS grade it?
Bill
09/07/2006
09/07/2006
0
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this yet, but I'm not an expert on foreign coins, but since eveyone else was ignoring your post, at least for like 15 seconds, and you are one
of my favorite humans, who has always been kind to me, i thought i would attempt to help you at the risk of sticking my foot in my mouth
clear up to my navel.)
If hypotheticlaly, is were a mint state coin, it would grade about MS 62.6 if they graded coins using correct methodogies. They will grade it
MS 62, in an effort to keep their place as the most conservative coin grading company.
If it's a matte proof, it would probably still grade the same but with a PR in front of it instead of a MS.
actually, i'm only posting so that every friggin' thread on the page doesn't have snakeboy as the last poster.
you good folks can thank me later.
Now with the coin I posted, the Matte Proof process was new to the UK in 1902. Most if not all of the coins were wiped on the mint workers aprons as soon as they were popped out of the press. Silly mint workers did not realize they were suppose to look like this and were trying to shine them back up. How should this affect the grade? Should PCGS take this into account when grading these?
09/07/2006
<< <i>What's your words per minute and how much coffee have you had? >>
hunt & peck and not a milligram of caffiene in the house!
09/07/2006
a hairlined coin rarely, if ever, will slab at above a '63 grade. even coins with 'as made' problem such as strike or die polishing can hold a coin back. for instance, the lafayette dollar, many pieces exhibit heavy die polishing that effects the luster and thus limits the grade because there are pieces extant that don't have those characteristics. if the subject issue exists unimpaired, then why would a grading service give a pass on a coin like that. also, given the the pix you posted, still doesn't look like a matte proof to me. matte proof dies are either peened or sand blasted and the surfaces of that piece just don't reflect the characteristics associated with those processes, imho.
I shall conclude by saying that I am not a British coin expert. Their grading systems are far more strict that ours are, and I suspect that the PCGS graded coins would not cut it among UK collectors.
Still the only hope that I see for this coin is that it is a Matte Proof, which would make the flat surfaces acceptable for this piece.
Are you easiy distracted?
A reply is not necessary, although mentally focusing on the answer in exactly one minute will suffice for much of the board who seek direction for the tone, tenor and structure of your desired responses.
The coin looks like it doesn't have any wear and that it may have been cleaned. The hairlines are responsible for the stripping of the
luster, regardless of where it got the hairlines. PCGS is luster nuts, but scans and images never give the full picture.
i.e. good luster and no breaks in the "shine" on the highpoints and you have usually a mint state coin.
Scans especially are not great for showing luster but your coin is fairly even in appearance without lines or demarcation between low
points and high points which would be indicators of wear, and thus your coin looks mint state, or as stated early on, a possible matte proof.
The little fine lines that are extant most surely are not die polish because they are too fine and appear uniformly on the coin...die polish,
while not being limited to fields, usually isn't as noticeable on devices, hence my suspicions that the lines are hairlines not die polishing
lines.
Your images are decent....hairlines that are visible on an image in the quanity that they appear usually will keep pcgs from giving grades
above 63, regardless of where the hairlines were obtained because hairlines can be "added" at any time.
No hits, skitches, rim bumps or poor strike which would in addition to the hairines, drop the coin below 63 or 62.
Adrian I was hoping for a rebuttal from you after I added more info.
09/07/2006
This is a good thread to explain the attraction of lurking. )
know who put the hairlines on it, they will probably not technically grade the coin taking into consideration the etiology of the hairlines.
adrian
(Cos....what are you wanting for christmas?)
Now as far as Matte Proof versus UNC. Here are 2 links one is a PCGS MS63. The second a PCGS PR63.
PCGS MS63
PCGS PR63
09/07/2006
roadrunner
09/07/2006
"I don't see a difference, do you see a difference?"
1. The issue of the mint striking the coins with hairlines (or other imperfections) as minted, and whether that should affect the grade is an interesting issue. For example, ALTHOUGH I HAVE NOT SEEN THE COIN IN PERSON, I have been told that an unique SLQ pattern coin has a cutting in it (or deep scratch) that was part of the mint's processing of the pattern coin. If I am not mistaken, NGC graded the coin gem MS65 and that may be the totally appropriate grade for the "as struck" specimen. Perhaps, if it was a different coin though (say a 2001 state quarter found in change), the coin might be graded lower?
2. Trying to determine hairlines created by the mint employee vs. outside the mint is obviously a great deal harder to do than to study a cutting in a unique coin which the mint performed and documented. But, we are talking about the same general concept here - and, of course, the hairlines are less damaging per se than a cutting.
Assuming the mint made hairlines could be documented, you might very well have a wonderful gem+ coin here. Otherwise, you might very well have a coin that technically can not be graded higher than an MS62 or MS63 (or MS64 on a very generous day).
Wondercoin
With all that said though, this is a foreign coin and the rules are not the same.
dragon
The Standing Liberty quarter pattern you refer to was actually defaced by mint director Von Engelken! Cline includes in his book, a letter to the superintendent of the Philadelphia mint where the mint director states "You will notice that I have scratched these two leaves off the coin I am returning to you. With this slight change you may go ahead and make up the dies for the finished coin."
I guess if a coin is historically damaged the grading services will still holder it. I am not sure about the grading though. Proof 65 with design features scratched off seems a little generous IMO.
I think at one time Jay cline had this coin in his personal collection, perhaps he still does?
Mark:
Wondercoin
09/07/2006
09/07/2006
<< <i>I know this is the US coin and forum and that is why I am posting this here. I need some expert opinions on what you guys think this Gold Coin should grade. Also if any of you could in your opinion what would PCGS grade it?
Cosmic this is a beautiful piece of Gold. I am assuming that the OBV is Matte? Was it cleaned? I would not let PCGS touch this coin and would send it to ANACS or NGC for Determination.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."
Come on over ... to The Dark Side!
From the scan, the matte lustre looks just like the (only several) matte proof Edward VII gold coins I have examined.
Polished Die Example.
09/07/2006
<< <i>I'm curious as to why so many here feel this is not a matte proof (impaired or not)? >>
It could be that US collectors have an eye on matte with some luster and shine. This shows neither and the hairlines through out the coin make it look like it was cleaned. I think this is a beautiful coin.
Tell me who you decide to have it graded with and please post the outcome.
"The silver is mine and the gold is mine,' declares the LORD GOD Almighty."